No. I said anyone who does will fail. I'm willing to wager any amount on the conditions that the guy be average and I get to set the standard of what constitutes a hot girl.

Actually having dated girls rather than just talked about it on some PUA chat site.

Never, Again I'm willing to bet any amount under the same conditions as above. I'll even give the person three shots at it.

Cool. If you just wait a few months until my game is better, then I'll gladly take your bet, lol. Unless you think I look too hot. What exactly would I need to achieve? Get the hug? I've already done that a bunch of times. I've also had girls attracted to me. (edit: using this opener obv) Only reason it hasn't gone further is because I didn't know how to escalate things yet.

Actually I showed this to my GF and she wants to know what you meant by "responds well" (to negging generally and this in particular) because she can't imagine what would qualify other than politely humouring the guy and then walking away.

Also she wants to know if this is out of some playbook: Guy circles her for a few hours and then eventually comes up to her at a club and says "My friends and I took a vote and we agree that you are the second hottest girl here tonight."

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With respect to the wager a hug is not enough. Hugs are meaningless. You need to actually get her to go home with you either that night or at least see you one on one in the immediate future.

I believe negging is a form of playfully teasing a girl. If she makes some kind of mistake or has a noticeable quirk you call her out of it. A way of showing spine and not putting the pussy on a pedestal. Some sort of balance being the rude ******* and the nice guy that constantly tells her how great she is.

I understand the concept. What I'm interested in is what is considered a favourable reaction to the horse opening? Specifically how would you know a girl is reacting favourably vs just being polite while waiting for her chance to escape.

With respect to negging it is a tragically flawed concept because it assumes the girl needs to be knocked down, meaning you understand she is higher up the dating hierarchy than you. The end result is that the guy comes off as a over-prepared nutcase trying to insult a girl that is out of his league to get her to like him.

Henry- I am someone who doesn't buy into most of this PUA stuff, but at least I'm willing to listen and be open to ideas. You are being pretty closed-minded.

Negging obviously works to some extent. You give the girl a hit to her self-esteem and it makes her naturally long to be approved of by you. It's not a perfect technique, but it certainly is going to be useful to a PUA. As for knowing whther a girl is into you or just being polite, I think that should be obvious by her level of interest, which is something you would also learn from a PUA instructor (I'm assuming.)

Your GF encountered a guy that probably has read some stuff, but it obviously too dumb to understand the difference between an opener and a neg, and even dumber for first circling her a couple of hours.

This assumes she cares to have the guy's approval. It assumes that a woman will want the approval of a strange man clearly below her on the social hierarchy (who has just insulted her) over that of a grown man she likes and respects, which is how it works in all other cases.

I understand why this is a critical part of PUA material because most of the people who study this have no confidence or self-esteem. They have very limited contact to these girls they want to date so they end up drooling over them which is very unattractive. Instead of helping guys rise up so that they are actually on par with the girls it is much easier to try to pull the girls down.

The problem is that attractive girls are constantly being attacked by people who are trying to bring them down so are quite capable of dealing with this.

Think of it this way: Would you care if some unattractive, awkward, girl insulted you?

You know... her body language opens up, she leans in and/or comes standing closer to you, she can start touching you as you're talking with eachother, she starts asking questions about you, she might even express her interest in you verbally, directly or indirectly.

By indicators of interests Henry, mostly subtle cues that tell you she is mildly interested in continuing the interaction. Flipping her hair, pupils dilating (obv useless in a club environment), touching you (a tricky one, because she can attempt to gain the upper hand in the interaction again by doing this), asking for your name, opening her body langauge to you, pushing her chest forward, rubbing her glass, if for some reason the interaction got interruptede, reinitiating conversation, putting herself in your peripheral vision if you were physically separated, and many more. Many of these things will happen on an unconscious level, and the culprit here is that thing we call evolution.

You think you understand the concept of negging, but you do not entirely. Negging should only be employed when a girl shows some signs of contempt for you, which shows that *she* is the one that assumes she is higher up the dating hierarchy than you. You "correct" that by negging her and making her just a bit less sure about herself. If she is just polite and friendly, you are just being a jerk for negging her.

Also, a neg is *not* an insult. For somebody that has such firm convictions about PUA not being a viable way to meet women, you show a (ok well not so) surprising lack of understanding of very basic concepts.

The example you used earlier, with what happened to your girlfriend, shows you are not alone in misunderstanding this concept. These guys now are just being viewed as a couple of bozo's by your girlfriend, and she is right too.

That is why I am not a big fan of this horse girl opener. It could work if delivered with high intensity and an attitude that should make it obvious that you are joking, and then only on girls that match that intensity. In other words, calibration.

If the guy is studying this stuff she is correct in her evaluation.

Also it seems that from what I read so far and from the examples you and Slick provided that negging is part of every single open so how often do girls show contempt toward a PUA doing his open?

From what I'm gathering it seems like almost always.

And how would she exactly know Henry?

And tell me again how mimicking another person, as you so vehemently have propagated as the correct way to go about things, versus studying it from a book you have, would alter that evaluation Henry?

For argument's sake, let's presume she would know in both cases what the guy is all about. Would it be "Oh this is one of those PUA wannabe's" versus "Oh this guy observed his buddy and is now doing the same, how cool!"?

Is that how it works according to you?

And remember, she knows in both cases. She is psychic and knows exactly what is going on. Not what happens in the real world, but ok, as said, just for argument's sake.

Did you even read what I said about negging? Post 261, second part.

Oh, and please to be telling me which opener I provided??

I am curious now.

Negging is not apart of every opener. The most frequent ones I've read involves a general opinion type opener. Most negging happens during the conversation and the girl is acting bitchy or with beautiful girls that have to shoot down many guys over the course of the night. If the girl is supplicating it would be rather dumb to neg her.

this can be true, but when done naturally, negging = one form of flirting

I am trying very hard, but I am really unable to come up with any opener with a neg in it, other than the one Slick provided with his BradP. example. I always used opinion type openers.

In normal english that means a cool/funny/interesting topic that a woman is able to relate to.

Such a ******ed concept. How dare I.

Henry, you have done a fantastic job of ignoring the parts where it shows you are blatantly wrong, and keep on spewing uninformed nonsense, I missed this bit :

No Henry, you do not understand what negging means, it does not assume a girl needs to be knocked down.

The only tragically flawed thing here is your insistence to have opinions about things you think you understand, but obviously don't, as again shown in this quoted example.

Just cold approaching some random girl at a club or party and saying Hi and something standard is boring and usually won't get you very far. Actually having something interesting to say from the get go is much better.

Okay, I just read the horse opener above. I don't consider that a neg. That's more just being a dick. A neg to me is like "I love the way your face wrinkles up like that when you smile" or something like that, where it can actually be taken as a compliment. That horse thing is terrible. I can't imagine that ever working.

Spot on Sly. It is an opener that has some sort of insult built into it, so you better make sure it is very very obvious you are joking. I would never touch this opener.

The fact that BradP has been voted as best PUA of the year whatever that means, doesn't take away that I would like to grill him on this thing.

Lol the more I think about this the more awful it becomes.

Slick, are you reading this? What is your take on this man? Is it exemplary for his attitude and stuff he is teaching?

You are kidding right? Anyone who uses any of these techniques might as well wear a I'm a student of PUA material T-shirt. This stuff is blatantly obvious behaviour. Do you think girls live under rocks and don't have access to popular media or that they have not run into other guys who are deluded into think this stuff works?

Because in that case you know for a fact that the friend is successful. With PUA material you have a few guys making some money off of this and a bunch of dorks who keep the myth that this stuff works because none of them want to be the one to point out that the Emperor is naked.

Because PUA openers are pathetic -- every single one that has been provided is complete garbage and it is embarrassing that someone would admit that they actually believe they would be helpful. That is nothing like learning stuff like learning how to really socialize like a normal human being which is what I'm advocating.

There is nothing going on in the second case -- just socialization with no agenda. The best way to get laid is to not try.


Every discussion of this topic both here in and in the original Relationship topic mentions that negging was involved. I wasn't thinking of a specific post just that every story that was posted by PUA (Relationship topic / two PUA sites / Brad P stories) at some point mentions that they invoked a neg. Almost all encounters involve a neg at some point.

If a girl is bitchy to a guy it is because she doesn't want him there. Negging will not help. That this concept even needs to exist is a condemnation of the PUA system. If a guy can actually socialize properly he won't have girls being bitchy to him.

Yes but interesting and ******ed are not the same thing. The horse opener and the brad routine are both ******ed. A few of the other openers I've seen are just as bad.

That is how it is defined by everyone else. The point of negging is to put a girl down. It is a compliment with a backhanded insult. If not to knock someone down why would you insult them?

Why say something like that at all?

What are you trying to accomplish?

Why do you believe it helps?

No level, my point is this isn't PUA, you're just used PUA as your eye opener angle for self improvement. You're not into the competitive nature of it, judging by your post, in fact despite posting a lot of text in this thread, you still shy towards modesty when confronted.

I think you must accept that most of the stereotypical PUA people are not like you, and that by defending PUA in the way you are, you are defending them as well.

Read what I said above about knocking her self-esteem down and her seeking approval. I don't use these tactics, but that's the idea.

That is what I thought but I just wanted to confirm since I was told right after that by Alamo that it is not to knock her down.

henry,

assuming you were not with your current gold-digger (i keed), do you think there are any aspects of yourself that could be improved upon in order to help you pick up the most attractive and interesting women possible? what are they?