I think the whole point of negs from a PUA sense is that they give a guy who is a 6.5 a chance with a 9. Because the guy is lower rated than the girl, then theoretically he would have to lower her social value to have a chance with her. It also gives the 6.5 a chance to differentiate himself from all the other slightly above average guys hitting on this hottie. Every one of those guys is gonna be saying stuff like "you're beautiful, can I buy you a drink?", but if the 6.5 is able to properly neg the chick, then the theory goes that the chick will think "hmm, this guy is different from all the other chumps, he could be interesting".

OTOH, if you take a guy who is a 9 or 10, then it would be retarded for that guy to start negging a chick who is an 8 b/c he already starts with the higher social value, thus he doesn't need to knock the chick down a peg.

Yeah in theory, if done perfectly. However the more likely outcome is 6.5 tries to insult 9, she says wtf are you doing insulting me mr 6.5, **** off.

PUA is based on correct psychological principles, the question is more whether it is correct in its application of these principles.

You're right, the 6.5 is gonna be fighting an uphill battle and better have some solid social skills even with a well used neg, but if he just approaches her doing what everyone else is the 9 is gonna yawn and take the first opportunity to leave.

The theory is that the neg approach gives the 6.5 a better shot with the 9 than the standard approach. Although it might only raise his chances from 2% to 4% or something like that.

I think thats henrys whole problem with PUA. Instead of trying to find ways to trick a 9 into having sex with yourself, a 6.5 (not you, generally), why not just spend the time and money into bumping yourself uip to a 7.5 or something, making it a lot more likely (im sure theres a 2 point rule somewhere)

That is part of the whole process too. The decent PUA material I've read has stressed improving you hygiene, physique, tan, etc. So maybe the guy is actually only a 5, but he's improved himself to a 6.5 thru the self-improvement suggestions, he still needs a "gimmick" to improve his chances with the 9.

what number scale are we refering to looks ?
If you guys forgot girls value status as much as we value looks

So having sex with different girls will prove that pua works, seems simple enough. Just by doing pua things you will learn and become better at picking up girls, the results will be sure to follow

The problem here is that this mindset seems to encourage a horde of AlanDyers to spawn.

It all boils down to which material is read and how much common sense the reader uses in applying it. I think AlanDyer read Gunwitch, which I think is pretty radical crap although I haven't read it, and combine that with Alan's lack of common sense makes for a hilarious situation.

If you take a guy with some common sense in applying this stuff, and give him some of the better PUA material (I think David DeAngelo is ok b/c he stresses attraction instead of seduction) then it can be beneficial.

I haven't read the whole thread, but from what I have read it seems like a lot of people are in the camp that either PUA stuff is completely worthless, or it's the greatest stuff ever. I think neither is correct, and like a lot of things, there are shades of gray and you might get a lot out of it if you put a lot into it.

i whole heartily agree with that comment especially the last paragraph

Ok. I'm going to be in an office environment all day so I'll do a kind of trip report slowly during the day.

I'd say he should be trying to raise his rather than pull her down. Truth is if there is that much of a gap then she won't give a **** what he says to her. People care about what their peer group thinks but not what some random guy who is clearly below them. If anything I can see negs by guys way below the girl helping guys in her peer group get laid but that isn't the objective.

I see this a lot in PUA material. Why do PUA gurus think that guys talk like this? They don't.

Guys don't go around kissing girl's asses like this so one of two things is happening. The most likely is that PUA gurus know that their target demographic are guys who put women on pedestals so they have tailored the programs so as to attribute those criteria to what typical guys say or they simply have no idea how normal guys behave like.

The problem is that the dichotomy simply doesn't set itself up the way PUA gurus claim it does. The vast majority of guys are not kissing the girl's ass.

The second problem is that PUA has really made it into popular culture. Girls know what a neg is. The tactic has the opposite impact when the person actually recognizes it and any girl with half a brain will. Even if she doesn't other guys talking to her will and if the neg had any impact she will talk about it after allowing some other guy to reverse it and basically shut down your chances completely because now she is going to be pissed that you tried to pull something like that on her. PUA actually is a great tool to get rid of other guys. Simply tell a girl that your competition is using something for PUA on her and you've completely ****-blocked him.

Short of being actually physically disfigured I generally don't accept that getting to a 6.5 is the best the guy can do. A 6.5 is just a guy that is too lazy to do what it takes. Now I understand people are lazy and they want short cuts but if short cuts actually worked everyone would be doing them. If you look at anything when a shortcut option is offered it never works so I don't see why people would expect success with women to be any different.

Are you using the future tense because English is not your first language or are you using it properly? I think a lot of people who study PUA think the results will follow but the anecdotal evidence suggests that is not even close to being true.

been reading alot of the pua forums this week and watching vids and i disagree with their assumption that guys hit on girls all the time and that they do so in a straightforward manner.

i'm thinking back to all my friends throughout the years - popular guys, nerdy guys, my very good looking/popular/muscular/confident brother, classmates in law school and b-school - hardly any would go up to a girl and say "Hi my name is Brad, I think you're beautiful. Where are you from?" It tended to be indirect and much slower - like a guy's friends would know some female friends and the guy and girl chat one night when in a bar where all the friends are together. Then not until another night or two or more would the two escalate the situation.

the only reasons i can think of for all the pua gurus saying that the nerds need to be creative, psychological, different, etc are 1) helps sell a product - can't really sell a product if all your product is simply "go say hi, get to know her" 2) makes the audience feel like they're in on some secret and that they are learning something that few others know and/or 3) it's just what gurus know how to do because they're type A extroverts who do this wacky stuff naturally. i had some more reasons in mind but have not had my coffee yet.

i honestly don't think girls get hit on that much in clubs/bars, like the PUA gurus make it sound like. i'm 34 and have been in a lot of bars/clubs over the years with friends that are girls and with guys and i don't remember ever seeing a steady stream of guys going up to girls hitting on them. sure some creeps and 60 yr old drunks go up to pretty much every girl all night, but i don't see a bunch of average/good looking guys going up to girls all night. i think the PUA salespeople really inflate that to make it seem to their audience of nerds that they must do something off the wall and superconfident and psychological to get these women who allegedly have super-inflated egos and swat away guys every few seconds.

i guess that's why i like reading the day game/direct game stuff on the forums because it allows a person to be himself and work on grooming/style and confidence rather than on deception (plus, NYC is great for day game because it's a walking city).

the stuff i see on those forums can be so retarded and socially awkward. a post in a thread about how to approach a girl if she is on her cell phone while shopping or walking in the street. i dunno, maybe i'm not alpha enough, but this just seems so tacky. SS is the pua (granted it's just some random poster, not a guru)

I'm too lazy to proofread this. I wrote it while answering phones and doing other stuff so it might be badly written. It is long and has nothing to do with PUA

Prison TR

The story starts off in traffic court which I was shocked to find out even had a holding cell. They took my belt, shoelaces, and the contents of my pockets. I guess to prevent me from hanging myself. I figured I was going to sit in the holding cell for an hour or two and then get sent home until I heard on the bailiff's radio that the cop was lost and couldn't find the holding cell entrance which was when I realized I was being moved to jail. The ride over was fine the cop was laughing because it was so clear that I wasn't a criminal and he had never picked up someone from traffic court. I asked if we could swing by my house so I could pay my rent but he said he couldn't.

I got to jail and was put in a holding cell waiting for processing. I was in with 3-4 guys. Started talking to them. I obviously didn't fit in they were all disheveled and I wasn't. They brought us out for processing and the guard turns to me and says "You have to go now you can meet with him after he gets processed." Obviously mistaking me for the guy's lawyer. If I hadn't asked for my belt and shoelaces back I could have just left. I did and then they realized I was suppose to be there. They would keep losing track of me since I wasn't a criminal I wasn't on any of the lists and they actually forgot me in the hole later. They processed me. I asked to see my cell phone and jotted down a few numbers for later.

Now in my orange jumper I'm walking with the other guys. We have to pick up these single mattress pad like thing. Apparently I was smiling too much because one the guards asked "Why was I so happy" and I shot back some comment about how I was just there temporarily but he would still have this ****ty job. Not my best burn but I had plans to go drinking with a friend who was coming in from out of town that night and now I was going into the general population of a jail so under the circumstances it wasn't bad. More importantly it established that I wasn't afraid and I really wasn't. At this point I saw it as an adventure and a new experience. I figured if once I got bored with it I could get myself out but it might be interesting to spend a weekend or even a week. I had never been to jail before and here was an opportunity experience it without any of the negative aspects of having a criminal record. I pretty much assumed that I would have some physical confrontations but that I would be fine because I've always been fine so I wasn't overly worried and even somewhat excited.

So we get to dorm 1 and get let in. The room is basically the size of a small school gym. A double door system to get in. Two phones at the front. Bathroom stalls and showers in a separate bathroom and then the big room which has a bunch of tables at the front and a tiny TV followed by a double row of bunk beds. Pretty much the way a military barrack gets portrayed on TV. There is a big red emergency button to press but located in such a way that you'd never get to it if you were actually in trouble.

The dorm had two rows of 10-12 bunk beds so a capacity of 40+ which is not what I expected based on TV. There were two guys who were clearly bikers, two black guys of Caribbean heritage (probably Haitian), a group of YOs who i would later find were moved to adult jail because they were beating the crap out of the younger prisoners in the youth facility, a Lebanese group, a older person group, and then just random individuals who you could tell were just losers in life and unimportant in prison as well. It is funny because I automatically started assigning crimes to each of them and I was either right or very close on all of them.

When new prisoners are introduced to a dorm there is a period where you have a high probability of getting bounced -- basically challenged to a fight the result of which is the loser usually goes to a new dorm where because he was already bounced has a high probability of getting bounced again until he ends up either in PC or the hole. This is part of the entertainment and by the end I would actually look forward to it. I never bounced anyone but it was like having ring side seats to a street fight.

I came in on a Friday so I was lucky in the sense. Friday is a popular day both for new convicts and because the people serving weekend-only sentences come in and many of them bring in the drugs and tobacco. So there were a lot of people coming in which decreased the chance of me getting bounced. One of the weekenders had been processed with me so I had already established what in PUA terms is called social proof by the way I treated him and talked back to the guards. Still weekenders are useful but not really respected so there was still a good chance of getting bounced. Two guys who came in with me did get bounced but I didn't.

During the bouncing period I got to watch the group dynamic. Pete a massive big biker was the one who was in charge. The other biker had his back. The YOs did all the bouncing and they had a leader named Dusty and they basically ran stuff unless Pete was pissed enough to get involved. The Haitians kept to themselves. The Lebanese group were a wild card. Old guys just tried to stay out of the way. Same with the general losers.

Out of this mess I did notice one loner guy who was not like the other losers in that you could tell he had a better life outside than the rest since he didn't have that poverty / white trash look. I figured he would be the best guy to try to talk to. I picked an upper bunk next to the second biker. A top bunk seemed to be the proper choice if someone was going to beat on me when sleeping I wanted them to not have leverage. Also being next to the biker would hopefully keep people away for fear of them disturbing him.

I didn't know it at the time but there was a discussion about me between Steve (the guy I wanted to make friends with), Pete, Dusty and some of the other YOs. They suspected I might be a narc so Steve came over and offered me some hash. I took a toke to be polite but it is far from a drug I'd seek out. Started talking and he seemed cool. I never found out what he was in for but I do know he was moved to super-max after his trial but he didn't serve too much time so my guess is something involving large quantities of drugs but no violence. Anyway they had gotten my story from the weekender and so were curious because I was odd and for criminals that makes them suspicious. I got called out for my entrance medical exam and went to see the nurse. I love how they wait till after the bouncing to do the medical exams but I was fineand a bit of a snot to the nurse.

Back in the dorm I decide to get my bed in order. The biker had just got off the phone and was pissed. He started to bitch to me about his lawyer. I listened and explained that while I was not a working lawyer I had an LLB and while my area had been intellectual property I did take a lot of criminal law so we talked about his situation. I agreed with him that the lawyer wasn't really trying and offered to help. Asked how the phones work and went to make some calls. I got a friend from law school who owed me big time to take over the biker's case, I called the strip club to tell them to tell my friend from out of town what happened and to put his bill on my tab of he had no money which he never did, called a third friend to come to the jail and get my keys so he could pick up my car from a golf course I left it at.

The biker was ecstatic. Started asking me about why I was there. I explained the whole thing. He thought it was a hoot. Started talking about the gambling and asking me about people he knew who were involved in underground gambling. Eventually we hit on some people we knew in common. That led to him yelling out that "Hey Pete this guys knows XXXXX" Which got me to meet Pete but also made it clear that I was ok. Pete had already heard about the me coming from traffic court and we laughed about it a little. Then dinner was served.

Steve invited me to sit with him and dinner is a very stressful time. Something like taking someone's desert is grounds for a fight. I'm a very picky eater so I didn't want to have a lot of the stuff that came with dinner but I had to take it and give it away. i couldn't just leave it and have someone take it without causing problems so i did that. The rest of the night is just shooting the ****. I spent it talking to Steve, a crackhead, and met some of the YOs.

Most of jail is just talking and luckily I had a lot of interesting stories. My biggest concern was that they would think I was full of ****. I mean my life is a pretty questionable story and in real life I have props but in jail I'm just a guy in a orange jumpsuit talking about stuff. The weekender saw me in the processing cell but i am pretty sure he couldn't tell the difference between $2800 Prada coat and a $100 Sears coat so I had to start off with stories that were interesting but not unbelievable.

By the end of the first half day I had made contact with the Alpha inmate and established that we had acquaintances in common, I had the second biker indebted to me, I had befriended a guy of medium status who was the most like me, I had established that on the outside I was comfortable both in the legitimate and illegitimate spheres, I had a lot of great stripper / girl stories which for a guy in jail was a big topic. I was pretty sure I was going to be ok so long as they didn't think I was full of ****. I figured my greatest threat was two YOs - a pretty tough guy named Soldier and a total punk who always went after the smallest runts during bouncing and who would have been bounced himself if he wasn't native.

The next day was pretty uneventful. Basically sat around and talked, played cards and chess, watched TV. The only significant development was that a guard needed me to sign something to give them permission to go into my personal possessions and give my car keys to my friend. At this point he asked me how someone with no job could afford a Porsche which was load enough for a few inmates to hear thus confirming some of my story.

I spent the next few days just talking and killing time. There was no gym and going out to yard was stupid (it was cold and there was nothing to do but walk in a square). Three or four days in I was switching channels and stopped on Law and Order. Pete yelled out to me to change it. He had two rules -- No cop shows and no talking during the Shakira video of Hips Don't lie which seemed to play at least once or twice a day. The important part wasn't the reprimand but that he called me GQ. That became my jail nickname and even know when I occasionally run into someone from Dorm 1 they still call me GQ. I also had a lot of female visitors almost all strippers and strip club staff and that really helped my status. The Haitians had never spoken to me until we used the visiting booth next to mine and after that he came over to give me props on the girl who had come to visit that day.

A few more days pass and now the guards are on work-to-rule basically a strategy where they do a ****ty job to pressure contact negotiations. The claim was that their jobs were unsafe and they were really pushing to cause a riot. Anxiety was really high because the routine was bring broken and inmates need routine to function. Something like serving dinner three hours late and cold and only half of what should be there and convicts freak. I managed to keep things under control by explaining to Pete and Dusty that if they don't control the inmates the guards win. That the guards want us to go nuts so they can say that the jail isn't safe. That kept the peace for a few days

Then one day we had no lunch yet and it was late afternoon. I went up to a female guard and though the bars explained that she didn't have to feed the rest of us but that one of the old guys was diabetic and that if she didn't have his lunch served immediately I was going to get involved. I clearly meant that I was going to look at legal options as well as telling some of my reporter friends what the guards were doing. I already had the inmates calling into local talk radio telling them what the guards were doing but that was mostly to give them a sense of power and keep them from rioting. It would be very different if I started calling people I knew in law and politics (not that I wanted to do that from inside jail).

Anyway she took that as a threat and came back with a bunch of guards. They came into the dorm and a male guard who was a total prick got in my face about threatening the female guard. I explained That I meant legally and not physically and that she knew that. I don't know what he was trying to prove but he got all up in my face and started asking me if I knew who he was. I actually did he use to be a YO guard but after he got beaten up by some YO a few months ago he was shifted downstairs because he couldn't command and respect from the YO s who made fun of him so I told him that he was the guy who gets beat up by kids and he lost it. I was between two bunks and I just lifted myself up and planted both my feet into his chest. The rest of the guards swarmed me and it was bad. I passed out I think from a choke hold and horrible things happened and I was dragged to the hole.

The hole is basically the same as being locked in your bathroom. You have nothing and you are in a small room with a toilet. I basically just sat and thought about stuff. There were a few academic problems and life planning stuff but without a phone or even pan and paper it is hard to do anything. Eventually i started keeping styrofoam from the dinners to use as really bad paper.

Eventually the door opened and they threw in a YO named Jay. Jay was from dorm 1 as well. Apparently things were pretty bad out there. All of solitary was full which was why we were now two to a cell. I was actually glad to be in the there rather than in the dorms given what I was hearing. Jay asked to use a phone to call his lawyer but it took hours and led to a great coincidence where I managed to get some revenge. We spent the time talking about stealing cars which is what he did. I might have trouble with the actual execution but at least in theory I know how to run a auto theft ring should things go to the ****s in the future. We also spent a lot of time talking about his GF who was a stripper and the jealousy issues involved with him being locked up and her having that for a job. I've actually hung out with him once since jail and seen him out a few times.

While we were in the hole I somehow pissed off a female guard. I don't remember how it started but she freaked out and wanted to open the cell door. I kept egging her on because I knew opening the door with only her and a second guard is against protocol since you need overwhelming force before opening a door and it would have been two on two. Also since in solitary you have no contact with the prisoners I think they keep the smallest guards in that section. She was a five foot nothing, fat, late 40s / early 50s female and the male guard who was trying to stop her from opening the door was 50+ and 5'6". If she hit me Jay and I would have taken them. In retrospect I'm glad she didn't open the door but I really kept insulting her at the time.

Next day I was moved to a different solitary cell. It wasn't actually a cell but actually the shower cell but they were desperate for space. That night a big black guy was thrown in. The guy was all bloody and massive. He didn't talk for the first two hours and eventually started talking. He had been bounced from 3-4 dorms. His story was that he was in for murder and waiting extradition to the States. Real story he told me was that he was in for criminal harassment of his ex-wife (stalking) but that he wanted to keep up appearance of a more serious and less stigmatized charge than stalking. He then went on about his small business as a kids entertainer. He apparently had a few costumes and would get dressed up and do young children's parties.

He was moved the next day and I spent some time alone in the hole. Eventually I returned to Dorm 1 to chatting of GQ GQ GQ. Jay had returned to the dorm before me and told the story about us being in the hole. It wasn't that I was a bad ass by their standards but it was enough to get acceptance. Pretty much at this point Pete was the only person who could hit me -- if anyone else did they would have to answer to him. By now the guards had been locked out by management and the jail was being run by the management staff. That meant minimal yard but everything else back to normal. The food seemed to be better and seemed to be prepackaged and the warden would come and talk to each dorm so things were peaceful. A few days later I got released. I hung out with Dusty twice, Jay once and Steve we were suppose to go out but then something came up and we never rescheduled.

Wow cool story. You make it sound so easy ie nothing in there that in theory I couldnt do. Haha it almost makes me want to go to jail for a week and see if I could do it.

Though would you agree luck played a decent part in your success? The fact that you avoided being 'bounced' straight up, and the fact you started next to Biker #2, an ideal person to begin with.

Regardless, great story.

Other than missing St Patty's day I don't regret it. I think a few less days would have been better but otherwise I'm glad I did it. I've used it to pick up girls before. It is definitely a lower rotation story but having large collection of interesting experiences is important. I almost went back but I managed to avoid it. A second time I have no interest in doing.

Luck plays a part in everything. I picked the bunk so that was only luck in so far as that one being available. With respect to not getting bounced coming in on a Friday certainly helped but traffic court only convenes on Fridays. I'm pretty confident that I would have been able to talk myself though it. I've been in a few fight type situations and it has never been a problem.