The problem with your plan is that excelling in all the other areas you mentioned in life does not necessarily translate into success in dealing with women. You get confidence with women by having experience with them. Getting more money isn't going to automatically make your communication skills with women better. Everything you listed are things that can make you additionally attractive to women but are not the core things she will initially be attracted to which is your charisma, humor, confidence, body language/sub communication, and communication skills with her. Those are the things that people in the community focus on as well in addition to everything you listed. Just because you have something like money doesn't make you good with women. I've helped and met guys who have plenty of money and are retired financially.

This basically sums it up. 'Going out and doing it' is arguably the most difficult AND important step

Your friends were probably new and got into it after watching VH-1 or reading "The Game" so your knowledge of what it is is probably just as warped as theirs. The fact that you attempted to post some report on the girl you picked up using your "I see you from across the room" gimmick and thought it was far different than anything PUA offers just shows that you really have no idea what it even is. This is the reason all the posts following yours mentioned that that's the same thing as PUA.

As far as not responding to your main point I did. I didn't respond to all of it because everything after one of the first parts I quoted and responded to was negated by my response. I have no problems getting chicks and doubt joining a debate club would help anyway though, thanks.

The problem with this is that you keep insisting that the average guy is a complete loser. That isn't reality. So based on your definition this statement is true but meaningless. Yes using PUA will make you better than someone who has zero social skills. You'll always be below average though if you actually use a real definition of the average guy.

Actually what I asked was what is the legal capacity of a typical club. I noticed you failed to answer.

I don't go to small clubs. The places I go to are actually on the larger side of the average. I also split my time between three cities and I have between four and eight venues that make up the core in each city and a few others that are on a much lower rotation. I still know all the regulars and they all know me. Even if you spent all your time exclusively going to mega-clubs hopefully if you are a regular you've managed to get into the VIP area which is considerably smaller.

I don't go to grocery stores. I'd say I have been in a grocery store less than five time in the last ten years. How exactly are you hitting it off and enjoying the vibe with a stranger?

Obviously you had to make an approach and try to pick her up. My point was hot stranger in less than ideal situation vs hot stranger is ideal situation. Why would anyone take a shot in a non-ideal situation if they were making enough shots? Trying to force something is an act of desperation. The whole mentality that you have to approach every hot girl you see is a sign of desperation.

Yet I'm more than willing to put this to the test and you chickened out. It is easy to type **** on the internet but soon as we get to the point of trying to make a prop bet out of it you intentionally torpedo it because you know you'd lose.

What he said was that people thought he was a loser and that he dealt with that by just saying **** it and not caring. He is advocating that if society thinks you are a loser you should say **** it and not care like he did. You provided the link and he says this in plain English and you are still trying to claim otherwise.

Only for someone who is so socially awkward that they need to overcome this. While there are guys like this that is not typical. No one is denying that for a subset of guys PUA is helpful in that it at least gets them to approach and talk to girls. It is a bad method but there are people who have worse social skills for whom it would be an improvement.

PUA is similar to alternative medicine in that the majority will do nothing, some will actually make things worse, and some of it will lead to improvement. In the end though it is only going to get you to a pretty low level and it is vastly inferior to modern medicine.

Man you guys seem to like going in circles. Let's see if I can try to spin you out of it a little bit.

FWIW before I write this I wanna say that I'm probably somewhere in between you guys on this topic, or perhaps in a third different direction. I'm not totally sure.

Anyways to my point for posting again in this thread. I posted way way back about where the "good stuff" of PUA is and I'm still uncertain. I have found some good things but it's pretty rare IMO and usually not very "PUA-like" if you ask me, but that's a different question. So let's see if I can re-phrase this into a specific question directed at both sides I guess:


Some background if it's relevant: I've always considered myself to be at least reasonably able to get along with people and being social etc, and when I'm not totally out of my comfort zone (rare) I'd consider myself far from a social retard or "complete loser" or whatever you want to call it, from anyone's point of view really. I'd also consider myself to be at the very least average looking, probably better but the point is I'm definitely not ugly or nothing. However, for personal reasons I never really got into dating or "picking up" or anything until I was about 21 (I'm 23 now).

So at that point I started going out a little bit, to clubs and parties with my friends. One thing I kept noticing though was that I was having a lot of difficulty talking to people if I had no obvious "reason" to talk to them. That's the best way I can explain it. This obviously included girls, even if they approached me and started the conversation, a few minutes in they expected me to carry on with it and I just didn't know what the hell to say, and they lost interest. And this happened time and time again. I was probably approached by a girl at least once per night if I was not with a big group of people already(mostly guys and their girlfriends if they had one). And cold-approaching some new girl? Forget it, never worked.

I looked into PUA but 99% of what I found was bs about making up stories about your life and doing magic tricks and **** like that that I obviously did not want to do. Either that or "just say hi to them". Gee, thanks. So what other advice would PUA(or the "naturals" of the thread I guess) give to someone like I was back then? I feel it's a pretty common problem and PUA was the only ones giving me any answers whatsoever (as that was the only answer my friends would give me, "go read PUA")

How do you avoid going to grocery stores?

Henry,
Even though two guys might have equal things going for them don't you think there are personality differences. Some people are more outgoing then others and some are in a good mood more then others. I've felt a lot of times when I'm out at bars especially in college that everyone was equal status. So I always felt that women were selecting based on looks and personality which was mostly how forward a guy was.

I don't eat at home so don't really need anything from a grocery store. There is a convenience store and a pharmacy in the lobby of my building for the few things I need.

Yes but now we are talking about the much smaller differences between people who all have a good base level of social skills. That is a different situation. Personality does matter in a situation like that -- assuming there is also a relatively equal level of physical attractivness. Once you put everyone in the same relative range smaller things become the only way to differentiate between them.

People who study PUA though are not equal to the average college guy. People who end up in a position that just going up to a girl is a big deal don't have that base level. There are things that a decent looking, social, popular guy can do that a socially awkward guy can't do -- it will just be received completely differently. PUA completely ignores that the success or failure of certain behaviour depends a lot on the agent. You can't just act a certain way and hope people don't realize it is an act.

No, they aren't. They go to meets and discuss tactics and current girls.

You've defined PUA so broadly that you might as well just call it "talking to girls, and thinking about what you're doing", that its impossible to dispute your position, since its so reasonable.

Also, you're using the no real scotsman argument to death, anyone who I know is PUA isn't good enough an example for you, and the fact that you decry the mainstream but don't offer an alternative, just a "trust me, this isn't PUA" response leads me to suggest you're terrible at debating. You may feel good about it, but these two argument fallacies leave me or Henry nowhere to go.

The funny thing about this thread to me is how Henry wiggles around masterfully and persistently in these long and pointless conversations, so that even if someone says something that is right, or somewhat right, what Henry says will also logically make sense and tend to be right but will at the same time make the other guy look less superior, either via good use of punctuation, good punchlines, smarter sounding sentence structure, or actually saying something "better", securing Henry the alpha spot of the invisible group of these debates in a PUA-like style

Although Henry, I do remember you driving really really far away to go to a store in NY and buy some random ho an expensive purse, I'm not sure I can cosign that. I'd be surprised if she DIDN'T ride your crotch after that one, I mean come on. Sure you can afford it, but wheres the challenge? Its like using a rocket launcher on an Ethiopian baby. To take it to an extreme, if you had a billion dollars, and were willing to spend 100k on random 10's every day, and were how you are now, you could be hitting a different 10 every day! Does that = you being more 'skilled' than someone else?

If someone was to workout so that they had a great body would you argue that because of that advantage what they accomplish deserves an asterisks?

I am simply saying that having resources (amazing body, a billion dollars, something else of the sort) doesn't mean that you are a better communicator / have more talent in regards to social dynamics / have everything figured out, regardless of results. Obv those things COULD still be true. That being said, in the grand scheme of things, who cares? This thread is pretty silly, I'm really not sure why you'd waste your time with it, aside for killing some time akin to forum minesweeper. I'm not hating on you bud, I think your communication skills, judging from your posts, ARE pretty solid, so getting in a battle of wits with you in some trivial thread would be a pretty big waste of time, as proven by several droolers in this thread

So if PUA is alternative, what vastly superior methods or approach do you mean by "modern medicine"?

apologies if you already went over this already but I'm not going to read a 8 page thread through. thx

I'm pretty sure we could find a correlation with attractiveness and income with ability to communicate. I'm not saying everyone who earns a high amount is a good communicator, or if you're a low earner you're a bad communicator, but the correlation would exist.