It depends. I know guys who if they don't pick up by an hour before last call they head over to the cougar bar which greatly increases their frequency even though it greatly decreases the quality. On the conservative side I'd say at least 10-12 girls a year. Excluding guys who are at either extreme I'd say a 15-25% success rate is reasonable so if someone goes out frequently then 3-4 girls a month would be normal. At the extremes I know guys with 100% success rates and guys who sleep with 4-5 girls a year. It is really specific to the individual. The point in bringing it up was that PUA makes it seem like getting laid is extremely rare and it is not. Even the guys on the low end would be considered superstars based on the PUA propaganda that having sex is on par with finding the Holy Grail.

if I remember correctly you are the guy who jokes about his own social awkwardness as a coping mechanism. I'm not including guys like that in my sample because the point was to compare just PUA vs non-PUA as a method.

I imagine it must be difficult for people to get into the bar scen tho. I know I have a good time when I go out, because I knew enough people when I started to go out and have a good time. Every time you subsequently go out, you will meet more people, and your circle of aquantances grows very quickly. not saying friends, but just people you would talk to if you saw out.

While myself and people I know do pull complete randoms, id say the vast majority would be friends of friends of friends of friends etc, ie people you get introduced to on a night out. While this happens with enough frequency for someone like myself who goes out 1-2 times a week, and much more I imagine for someone who goes out more, I imagine it would not be the same for someone just entering the bar scene, or who goes out much less regularly.

Not really. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks from when they decided they want to.

Yes you need to establish this which is what I mean by just going out. Once someone starts going out they will realize how connected everyone is to everyone else. Even the people who are not friends of a friend of a friend that you met once, you might not know each other but at you both know the server, or at least they have seen you around which is a massive help.

One of the problems with PUA is that it completely ignores how close-knit a bar scene is -- that is why Flawless couldn't understand how I'd know if a guy was going around the bar using PUA techniques. Everything gets around really fast. With PUA you either have to stick to massive mega-clubs or move around a lot since by the third or fourth trip they will be labeled as the loser who thinks he is a pick-up artist. At that point they are dead in the water. The whole point of PUA is to trick people into thinking you have high social value but the end result is that you end uo a social leper.

lol what a ***

if you go to clubs most people are wasted and are dancing or something, or standing around wasted remembering nothing. i really really doubt that in an average not so big club you get noticed after 4-5 times.

Also why do you keep repeating yourself. you keep answering to theyr points and then asking for some non crappy material over and over again.

Yeah but the bar staff will recognise you. Being a known regular means the bar tenders will be good to you, knowing bartenders = social value or whatever PUA calls it. Being that wierd sleazy guy will not get you good results with the people who recognise you.

Also, by being normal and nice, the regulars and barstaff will be social with you, you will meet them and their friends when they are out etc

Most people don't get wasted. I was part owner in a club before and after the tech bust took a look at buying parts of two others -- one of which was a major meat-market club. The average patron spends way too little to actually get drunk. It is actually pathetic how little people spend at most clubs. People drink and do whatever other substances but most regulars can handle their liquor. The people who do get completely wasted have usually just become legal and they spend their time at bars that sell booze ridiculously cheap. As they get older they will either start to deal with drinking better or be ostracized.

Because I was trying to get a definition of what we are talking about. The reason this topic is getting tired is because it keeps going in circles. If I criticize PUA method A -- then some other PUA comes in and says you are right method A does suck what you need it PUA method B. Then the whole thing repeats itself. My objective was to get them to commit to one PUA system so that we could have something concrete to discuss.

There was also a lot of circular / repetitive argument around the value of PUA to the socially inept. We kept coming to the conclusion that for the truly socially inept PUA was a step up but then the PUA would realize that was implying that they themselves were socially inept so then they needed to back-out of that common ground. Then two days later they would agree with it again.

henry in regards to your last point; its pretty obvious.

People only turn to PUA when they realized they needed some help picking up girls. Doesnt mean they are overall socially inept, just in that aspect of their lives. 99% of people who say otherwise are lying.

Henry:

I don't know if you have mentioned what I am asking about yet - sorry if I am asking you the same question. There is a lot of talk in this thread about how PUA stuff is not very helpful - I agree.

So, besides going out a fair amount (say, 5 nights a week), and having a reasonable income so that there are few restrictions (say, 100k/yr), what else can you recommend to someone (read: me) looking to improve their social life? I'm 20 if it matters.

PUA is helpful because it gives you something you know you can fall back on (confidence) and forces you to not be a pussy and go out there and do it.

If anything the best thing I learned from reading that stuff came at the first few chapters of the book which explained why through evolution girls are attracted to certain things. Having that knowledge can help you shape your convos to make sure you show girls that you have those qualities. No canned material or anything, just understanding how our brains evolved a bit.

In regards to clubs sure you could game there but its kinda tough because you cant hear anyone. I think it works best at college house parties. Besides, girls there are looking to hook up anyways.

Not without a lot more information. One of my big complaints about PUA is that it assumes that there is a universal silver bullet that works for all types of girls and there isn't. The type of girl you are interested in as well as if you are just looking to get laid or get a girlfriend will change what you are suppose to do. In general terms though you can look at the type of girl you are interested in and you should be able to identify what they value -- become that.

I think you are generally on the right track though. I saw a topic of yours recently where you bought some nice clothing. That is an excellent start. Also you are in a city where it is easy to do well with little effort.


For someone who believes in PUA reading / studying it will give them confidence in the same way that going to a faith healer can make people who believe feel like they are getting better. In the end though the results don't materialize. Faith healing doesn't cure cancer and PUA doesn't lead to getting laid. At that point the confidence will be completely shot or they will start redefining success in an effort to maintain the delusion and thus they end up like Flawless trying to count fake phone numbers as a win.

I'm actually interested. What are the things that PUA thinks women are attracted to?

I haven't read enough on PUA to know if PUA is correct or not but some of the stuff I did read seemed very wrong -- specifically the claim that women don't care about looks or success. I'm interested though to get a better idea of what qualities PUA thinks a guy should showcase.

the problem is Henry, your definition of "PUA" is way off. And I would be curious to who you read, because i can tell you that the stuff that i have read ( Juggler, recent Neil Strauss, Carlos Xuma ) advocate not using canned material, and developing inner game is of primary importance. I mean that's the whole business, different "leaders" teaching very different stuff.

Inner game is just developing a lifestyle that you want, that's interesting to you, that you have fun doing....it is the creation and living part of it. And this is the basis of interacting. They say this is the foundation. They say techniques can only take you so far. The good ones say that just techniques will not reach true success. There is a shift in PUA stuff recently that focuses on Inner game.

They also talk about humour, improvisational skills, health ( ive read that looks actually matter a lot, grooming and fitness is a big part. Not just about how you interact )...

i do agree that some PUA's say that stuff, but grouping all of them together is not fair.

Before this topic none. With this topic I asked people to give me some direction. I was helping a friend out so out in the country doing very little so had time to kill. People directed me originally to Brad P. From there it was to the Double Your Dating guy. Then some unknown local guy in Washington DC and then the last recommendation was the Real Social Dynamics guys. In the mix I also just googled PUA and found a few forums. One was Fast Seduction. The other two I can't remember but they were the first few hits on google.

While I agree that this is a good approach I have to say that I have not seen anything like this in any of the material people recommended. There were some PUA guys who recommended faking stuff but none that actually encouraged any real self-improvement.

So I am interested. If I had read this book when I was still young what would it have imparted to me? What would it have told me to do?

the RSD guys are the worst. They just preach being a social robot, and stacking routines and really preach canned material which is just a smokescreen. David Deangelo is basicaly just a businessman, not a real legit PUA. I think if you instead read Juggler or listened to some audio CD's where they interview Carlos Xuma, you would have a whole different perception of the game.

read this post. He explains how what Juggler teaches, and if you read up on the his articles you'ss see he jus advocates being yourself, but learning HOW to express yourself, not some fake image.

http://forum.charismaarts.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=6332

and here is an overview of Juggler Method of CA ( charisma arts )

http://wiki.charismaarts.com/index.p...ethod_Overview