It depends on the environment. Hopefully people have been working on becoming someone of value for some time. Unless you have a lot of resources most major changes can't be done quickly. Generally I'd assume most people would need six months at least and maybe longer depending on how badly off they are.

It depends. I personally believe you should try to master several social environments and then stress different qualities when in different environments. If you goal is to attract hippie environmentalist chicks you are probably much better off getting involved with various social activism groups than buying a $150k car. Likewise if the goal is the twenty-something girls who want to be Paris Hilton the $150k car is the better choice.

Girls go out in groups. By association the guy gets to freeride. I know a lot of hot girls already who I'm not interested in as anything more than friends and they trust me so by extension would trust someone I'm with. Less now but I use to throw a lot of pretty extravagant parties. I know at least half the strippers in the city.

Depends on the women. In many cases you can't. Girls who are looking for a guy who is into social activism I can't fast track. Likewise I can't fast track a good education and career which would be attractive to some girls. Physical appearance generally can be greatly improved for most people in six months obviously excluding people who are obese which would take longer. That being said if a guy only cares about getting laid and isn't specific about type there are plenty of 9+ girls who are attracted to wealth.

If I was trying to help a guy out it is because I like him. I'd just make him appear wealthy. Obviously I wouldn't do that forever but if you want to watch a shy awkward guy go improve instantly get him a personal trainer for six months, a designer wardrobe, plenty of spending money, and lend him a Porsche and luxury penthouse. You'd be surprised how well they do with women. Now obviously that isn't possible for most people and I'm not suggesting it is but that is what I'd do if I felt some solid guy needed to get a jump start.

It shouldn't be taken from this that I'm using the results wealth can generate to generalize about who normal guys do in bars. Many of my friends are students and that is the sample I'm using for my sample.

There is a and there isn't. A lot of guys have stuff going for them but don't realize it. They need to be shown what the competition is like to realize that they are actually above average. Some guys have stuff going for them but it just isn't stuff that twenty something hot girls value.

I shouldn't imply that the appearance of wealth would be the only thing I'd impart to some guy. There are a few other things that I think are important.

Read Kant or at least the Cole's Notes and use Kantian morality when deciding all you actions. This isn't just for girls but for life in general. Results take time but give it a few years and you'll be so much better off.

Don't lie or exaggerate. That is actually something you'd get out of Kant but it is important enough that I think it is worth stressing. You will be found out and you don't want to have that type of reputation. Never underestimate how small the world is and how closely connected people are. **** gets around.

Never talk about girls you've slept with ever. It is a sad statement but society still judges girls differently than guys for their sexual behavior so don't talk about it. It will take a while for this to get around but you'll find girls are much more likely to go home with a guy who keeps it quite and also doesn't judge her than with some guy who is going to tell people.

Don't be possessive or jealous. There is a difference between making a girl feel safe and being overbearing because you are insecure.

Actually be good at sex. Most girls I know complain about how horrible guys are in bed. Yet I don't know a single guy that doesn't think he is amazing. These can't both be correct and I'm much more likely to believe the girls.

Be competent. **** happens and being able to handle it so that a negative situation is salvaged is attractive.

Obviously these are not things that show instant results but I didn't want it to seem that my only advice was be wealthy.

was bored and found this thread. kinda interesting. i pretty much agree w/ everything henry has to say. one thing i don't understand is why everyone in this thread thinks some clever nerd losers (PUA) have better advice than someone (henry) that is (probably) actually "high status" w/ way more experience.

basically the reason i posted (besides being bored) is this prop bet is hilarious. it's not going to go down anyways so i don't really care about possibly hurting henry's action. flawless, you really think it's hard to have a 100% legitimate phone number rate?!?!?! the 50 numbers in a night and not believing legitimate phone numbers leads me to believe PUA is really really ****ed up. do PUAs really just parade around clubs completely disregarding any social norms putting on a circus and harassing women?

i mean usually when getting a number they give you their number to put into your phone and then you call it so they can get yours to put into their phone or vice versa. the magic of cellphones. numbers are usually fail anyways and only meaningful if it's at a point in the interaction that it's slam dunk academic and not even worth mentioning or if you genuinely hit it off but someone legitimately has to leave.

it's kind of levels of not getting a phone number. realizing it's a dead end and not asking is greater than or equal to not giving a **** and taking the freeroll is greater than not realizing it's a dead end and asking and then just a huge giant delusional leap to not realizing it's a dead end and being creepy/drunk/harassing enough to warrant them giving a fake number. imo getting fake numbers means someone is doing something very wrong. getting fake numbers and thinking they are real is proof that PUA is probably way more damaging than helpful imo.

In support of henry as well in the prop bet:

As I said, i dont have amazing game, I am just an average guy, and I reckon in the hundreds of numbers I have got in my life time, maybe 5/10? max girls havent texted me back. (in New Zealand texting rather than calling is the accepted norm). So an average guy is getting 95%+ correct numbers (and it could be 100%, they could have just not texted back, even though it was the correct number.

And I'm starting to come round to the fact that getting a fake number has no benefit, rather then some small benefit due to confidence. I'm assuming you call/text these numbers once you have them, surely the realisation that the number is fake would negatively effect the guys confidence enough to outweigh any gain in confidence from 'successfully getting the number'.

Very interesting discussion. Though Henry you seem to imply that all PUA guys are creeps. Surely this cant be the case. I watched that inside the VIP thing, while that Mitch guy was a bit of a douche, he wasnt an absolute creep. And Cajun, while possibly a little bit fake, was genuinely funny. I doubt girls would give him a fake number, or he would have a bad rep.

One question for flawless: What happens when you get these numbers? Assuming you arent hanging around, you probably arent going to go home with them that nite. So you will have to go on a date of some variety I assume. Does PUA tell the students what to do then as well? Or do they act like normal guys on the dates?

I should actually say pest or annoyance rather than creep. Earlier in the thread someone directed me to some guru (they are all merged now but I think it was the Double Your Dating guy) and I read his phone game essay. Some of it was good advice and some of it was bad but what struck me was what he said about getting a date. His advice was to ask but if she said not to go back to talking and then ask again. If she turns you down return to talking and ask again. He actually advises guys to keep doing this until she agrees. Well of course that is going to lead to a high percentage of girls standing guys up or canceling later. She doesn't want to and the strategy is to try just keep pushing until she capitulates.

That theme of just keep pushing and pushing until you get what you want is heavily present in PUA to the point where that strange fellow who is keeping an a journal of his PUA adventures in OOT is musing about being more forceful with girls once they get back to his place because the majority don't want to have sex. I'm not sure but I think that is called rape. It is the same thing with getting numbers. The girl realizes that if she doesn't give the PUA guy something he won't leave so she gives him a number since as soon as he has it he'll be on his way and leave her alone.

No, I've defined what PUA is numerous times throughout this thread which has been a part of the debate and the initial reason for me posting. One of the first things I said was that there's a lot of misconceptions in this thread about what PUA even is. As I've said already many times, PUA is a community of guys all working on improving their dating/social lives and their lives in general. The various ways people go about doing so have a wide range and there's a lot of bad information in the community just like anything else.

PUA is like 2+2. A place people go to improve themselves in poker. There's plenty of faulty information on here but that doesn't mean it can't be a valuable place to learn for the people that know how to learn. So someone whose learned poker on their own might come on 2+2, see a buncha stupid posts and bad advice.. then go around badmouthing the entire 2+2 community even though the range of people on this site is huge and the people that know how to use 2+2 are very good poker players. Same with the PUA community - the ones that know how to use it to improve that area of their lives gain lots of value from it.

This is why I said from the onset that people seem to have a plenthora of misconceptions about what PUA even is. Some people in the PUA have bad methods as far as what's going to get results the same way some people on 2+2 have horrible advice as far as winning at poker. But you don't label 2+2 as a technique, you label it as a resource for learning, same thing with the PUA community.

These things can, but are not a good/reliable way to go about getting laid.

The disagreement began with us discussing if getting a phone # was a victory, it had nothing to do with specifically getting a fake #. If you get a fake phone # then sure if you look at it in terms of the long term goal the guy failed, but when the guy gets the # he doesn't even know it's fake yet so having anything but a positive reaction is just pessimism. If you showed me guys that went home and called the #, realized it was fake and still felt like getting the fake # was a success then you'd have a case.

Even then once a guy realizes the number was fake... he doesn't have to harbor on it. A guy that is looking to improve his confidence with women that just focuses on where he failed is not helping the situation, he needs to acknowledge he did something wrong then go back to the drawing board to correct it, that's the process of improving.

Nobody is celebrating getting a FAKE #, they are viewing it as a positive that they got A number because they DON'T have a reason yet to assume that it's fake and DON'T know. When the guy goes home and calls it and finds out it's fake then yeah he failed as far as that girl goes and he just goes back to working on it. What's the big deal?

I'm glad you see the point now. For guys that are extremely new they don't have the same criteria as success that you do which is why they have successes in making progress. A common problem for new guys is that they have approach anxiety so them approaching is progress and if they get a phone # then that's progress as well because they now have a % chance of calling the # and it being real rather than a 0% chance that they had when not going out and getting any #s at all. If you want to argue that they should wait first until calling the # to make sure it's legit before feeling as though it was a success in the form of making progress then I'll buy that, but like I said, the original disagreement stemmed just from you saying a # wasn't even a success.

This could have something to do with the difference in views maybe but I don't know because I've never been there. Here in America in a standard bar/club setting most guys are NOT getting laid when they go out from girls they met that night on their own merit (without introductions through their social circle).

No, I go out a lot and am very familiar with the night scene so I've seen with my own eyes how most guys are with women. I'm also 23 so it wasn't long ago at all that I was in the college scene and had friends with lots of guys in very social fraternities or just social guys in general for that matter. The average guys are not frequently getting laid anywhere near high frequency, studies as I've said already have shown the average around 5-7 lifetime.

Are you counting a # legit if the girl gives you her real # but just doesn't pick up as a legit #? Or is that one in the same category as fake as far as you're concerned.

This is not about if guys can get laid, this about you claiming that they can get laid very frequently with new girls with no problem at all. Obviously when you go out you are going to see hook ups going on but how does that immediately serve as proof that average guys are getting laid with high frequency?

PUA is simply about doing everything involved with improving your results with women. It's not just focused on talking at all that's just one aspect. Like I said the PUA community focuses on everything involved with getting better results and people are at different levels in terms of their progression.

So prior to that guy coming over and giving you some validation you had nothing else to produce social value? So your results are at the mercy of external factors such as who you have with you and who you know?
The PUA community already is cognizant of what you mention here anyway... it's referred to as "social proof" (omg nerdy terms!). They've got plenty of archived posts relating to things as far as improving your social value/lifestyle/style, etc. That's just one among many different topics talked about in the community.

But this doesn't even answer the question at all that I was asking. I was referring to a guy that walks into a club where his social value is not known yet. If you and a friend decide you want to travel and go to some bar that you've never been to before you don't have any recognizable social value under your definitions... what do you do then?

The community doesn't offer advice to newbies about how to improve results with women based on already having social value because newbies don't have that yet, they pretty much have to go out and start from the bottom up to improve themselves first and create some social value.

And if you go into a club where you are not known by anyone or the girl you're talking to.. your social skills/confidence/style/swagger/body language/sub communications is what's going to be used to communicate to the woman your social value.

I have a neighbor that won the lottery and got rich. Sample size.

If someone uses other peoples opinions about who they are to define them and hold them back from changing then that's a problem. A lot of people don't feel entitled to change who they are because they feel as though they are already classified into a certain social class. To stop giving a f*ck about that opinion if it allows you to break out of that mindset to improve yourself can be very important depending on the person.

The 25 girls was simply for the purposes of the bet. But even then you have erroneous logic. If a guy's sole interest is getting laid from the most hot girls he can and there are a lot of them in the venue then going around and casting a bigger net will produce him more results. It's not a matter of approaching 25 girls just to get laid ONCE that night, it's a matter of talking to a large # of girls, getting a large amount of phone #s for options later, all while going home with a girl that night as well. Even if his conversion rate of phone #s to lays may not be as high as if he simply only took #s only from the girls he knew he could ****, it still would work better towards the overall goal of ****ing more hot girls presuming that's all he attempted to talk to. If I go out for the night and talk to 5 different girls and end up having more fun with one in particular because we hit it off better and I spent more time with them, that doesn't mean I can't still get the other girls phone #s to call later on as well if we did have good conversation. As I said, you can have a higher winrate in poker 1 tabling than someone 12 tabling, but he's making more money than you overall. You can have a higher % of lays from phone #s if you only take #s of girls you'll definitely **** but that's still missing out on other potential opportunities along the way.

So you can't talk to a girl you find cute that you meet in a restaurant and get along with for only a few minutes because you're on a time frame and then after wards attempt to get her # to call her later? I've gotten laid doing something like this many times and in a situation like this, getting the phone # is never 100% because you didn't have enough time to really show her that much social value or personality but passing on an opportunity like this if the girl is hot is illogical; unless you just simply don't like the idea of being rejected so you can only go for the 100% chances that you know you'll get it.

It does. The guys that stand out like freaks are newbies. If you think Cajun (only using him as a common medium for discussion sake, not that I even think he's amazingly good) stands out like a freak then ok, no need to argue that because it's just ridiculous.

Cool you'll basically give him a bunch of material things so that a woman can now be attracted to his clothes/money/car rather than him. This is great stuff, glad to finally hear some of your ideas about helping guys improve their lives.

There was apparently a misunderstanding in terms of 100% legitimate phone #s since I assumed he meant every girl that he is attempting to talk to and get somewhere with he will get a legit phone # from her 100% of the time. Anyone could have a 100% legit phone # rate by simply only taking a phone # from the girls that offer it to them on their own for example. T

There has to be some sort of time frame to work with because OBVIOUSLY if he only goes for #s with girls that he spent the whole damn night with to make sure they hit it off amazingly then he'd get it but logistics don't always play out that way. The example I gave above for example where you are limited to talking to the girl for only a few minutes before being forced to go but you are interested in her is never 100% which is why proclaiming to always get 100% #s was something I was willing to bet my roll on. Unless the only time you go for a # is after you're certain it's a lock then it's never going to be 100% you can get a legit # from the girl you're talking to.

And if you simply decide to not attempt to get her # because you don't feel like you are 100% to get it you're just passing on opportunities for no reason at all. If I'm in a super market and there's a cute girl there that I'm interested in talking to and things go well, I have no problem at all attempting to get her phone # even though it's not a 100% certainty she'll say yes because even if you don't get the legit # who the **** cares?

Henry, please elaborate on what you do in a situation where a gorgeous girl that you want to talk to is near you but it's a situation where you don't have more than 20-30mins to talk to her. Do you just not talk to her at all because of that? Just not attempt to get her phone #? Apparently it's one of those becTause if it wasn't you wouldn't be claiming 100% to begin with.

Keep in mind we are not talking about just the # being "real" for it to be a legit #, we're talking about the girl actually answering the phone later when you call because she's interested in talking to you some more. If anyone here claims they can do this 100% of the time let me know so you can make free money.

PUA covers any topic related to improving ones results with women. They are just normal guys asking questions like you that just are part of a community where they discuss things like this as well. If Henry had a "Well" thread in which guys that are not that good with girls can ask him questions or advice and it grew larger and larger with more guys who are good offering advice, that's the same thing as the PUA community. The PUA community has just gotten commercialized and the VH-1 show is giving people the wrong impression of it's roots.

That is the reason for me beginning to partake in this thread to begin with because people think PUA is for creeps/losers/nerds. No, it's for guys that are working on improving themselves and their lives with women and socially. If you are interested in that you talk with others who are doing the same, simple as that.

To answer your specific questions, yes there's all sorts of threads/advice/archvied posts/etc on tips for talking on the phone with the girl and going on dates. As far as the #s, if I don't go home with the girl that night or day (if I met her during the day) then I just get the # and call her later on like a normal person. I flirt a little on the phone, converse, build some rapport, and if we are both feeling each other we meet back up.

This is all getting pretty off topic though in terms of the main disagreement going on.

Here are some of the inaccurate claims you have made in your counter arguments to the philosophies of the PUA community (I'm going to just type it out and quote it even though its not an exact quote just easier than finding exact quotes):

No, the average guy is not getting laid with any sort of high frequency at all compared with the amount of time the average social guy spends going out. The only study that I'm aware of that has been done was by the Federal Government but even those statistics you wouldn't take. This is an opinion of yours that can't be proven wrong officially but is definitely way off base.

How is any man not interested in improving the quality/hotness of the girls he can get on average along with the overall frequency of his results with these women? I guess all average guys already have hot girlfriends? This is an opinion of yours that can't be proven wrong officially but is definitely way off base.

You claim that a Non-PUA guy improves his results with women just by going out there.

PUA guys focus on getting better results with women by methods of improving confidence/comfort levels around women, overall lifestyle, working on improving personality traits (humor, charisma, wit, charm), becoming a more interesting person (finding out hobbies that interest you, cultivate interesting skills, travel to interesting places, etc), and overall just improving who you are as a person and your life.

PUA is just a community that encompasses everything having to do with improving your social life in general, specifically with regard to women. You claim the non PUA guy just going out there produces better results/improvements. This is an opinion of yours that can't be proven wrong officially but is definitely way off base.

I'm noticing a pattern with debating with you. You basically attempt to hold onto your points/arguments with things that have any sort of subjectivity to them because it can't be proven wrong. Such as someone with $100k in passive income isn't "retired". This can't be argued because the context of the word "retired" can be subjective therefore impossible to "prove" anything. Such as Cajun being a freak and not getting laid. Sure you can't be proven wrong officially but it just looks silly however to make these sorts of claims.

The thing I still don't think you realize is that "PUA" is not some instruction manual with one liners on how to land chicks, it's a community of guys that are all interested in improving their results with women where they all talk about different ways to do so, experiment with things, bounce ideas off one another, etc.

Thus, ANY NON-PUA that is interested in improving his results with women is basically interested in doing the SAME thing as people who are in the PUA community, they are just doing it on their own and often times without any plan or structure at all for improving their results. If they already have been going out and getting X result, how is going out going to get them > X result? Further, how is them just going out superior to someone going out actually working to improve their approach and things they are doing?

Flawless makes some great points in this thread in my o

Because you have no way of knowing if all PUAs are nerd losers in the same way you have no way of knowing if Henry is high status at all w/ more experience. At my age I've probably ****ed more girls than he did when he was my age by far. Not to mention his logical reasoning is sketchy and his pessimistic subjectivity is far off base. See prior post of mine for elaboration.

You endorsed RSD. That is what you said was the good PUA material that I should look at. Two days later I was out in the country with zero to do so killed the time reading RSD material. I read at least two articles by every instructor and it was complete garbage. Since then you've posted a clip from one of the major RSD DVDs and it basically instructs guys to just say **** it to social judgement and not care what people think. It encourages guys to be delusional.

Now is it your position that RSD is the good PUA material or not?

And believing it is real would could be delusional. The value you assign to the number should be based on the best possible information which for a situation like this would be your historical record of real vs fake numbers with some minor subjective adjustments. Given that PUAs get such a high number of fake numbers to just assume it is real is delusional behaviour. Given the historical record the accurate assumption would be that it is fake.

I would like to know why it matters though? Why have any reaction at all? It seems pretty desperate to start counting victories at the earliest possible opportunity.

The big deal is that PUA gurus admit that even for them a very small percentage of numbers translate into anything. This is the instructors so it must be worse for the students. To just ignore that is to be delusional.


It isn't. Wow you are just so desperate to count getting seven digits on a piece of paper as a win that it is really pathetic.

For a tiny tiny percentage of guys going up to a girl is a win. Please stop trying to say that this most and almost every guy. It isn't. It is a very very small minority.

Canada and the US are pretty much identical. Did you miss the part where I mention how much time I spend in the States? Plus I have friends from law school who have moved to US firms and two Ex-Gfs who now live in the States. I understand why you need to hold on to the delusion that guys don't get laid frequently but you are wrong.

The same study also shows that 35% of guys checked off the 15+ sexual partners. This was discussed earlier in this topic. Why do you focus on the average rather than this aspect?

[/quote]
Are you counting a # legit if the girl gives you her real # but just doesn't pick up as a legit #? Or is that one in the same category as fake as far as you're concerned. [/quote]

Answering or not answering isn't the test. A large percentage of people I know don't answer unknown numbers. So just not answering doesn't say anything/ Likewise answering also doesn't say anything since it could just lead to polite chit chat followed by a brush off. The test for legitimacy is future communication that translates into a future voluntary activity or at least a good honest desire to have a future activity. The latter is a little subjective but I believe someone who is honest with themselves can tell the difference between a lame brush-off excuse and legitimate scheduling conflicts. Talking on the phone in and of itself is not a win.

Because the club scene or at least sub-scenes are not that big. I have eyes and a memory. When I played poker live I could tell you who the profitable players were even though I didn't know them and it was easy to ballpark how much they were making.

There is the part of PUA that tells you to dress like a clown but ignoring that can you link me to something that gives some instruction that involves something other then communication or frames of mind?
.
Again you fail to realize how small and connected a typical scene is. Everybody is at most at 2-3 degrees of separation from any regular. People know each other or at least know of each other. People see each other out and again they have memories so they might not know someone but they will know that is the guy that .... Also as a last resort there is always signalling based on clothing. I've been trying to keep this conversation more general and what an average guy with a decent income can do and less about me but in my case to the demographic of girl I prefer my clothing will signal a lot.


Yes I read one of these discussions on Fast Seduction. It involved nodding at guys as they approach with the hope that the girl won't see your initial acknowledgement and that when he nods back or says hi she'll think you are high social value. It was quite pathetic. But since you claim there is a lot of archived material then supply some links.

Clothing, bottle service, just having fun and being a fun person. If you are the high social value you are trying to signal is money then there are a lot of ways to do that but I'm trying to stay with average guy with a career but still only making $50-60k just to keep it.

Which is why I say PUA sees social value as talking. Social value has nothing to do with talking. Also with the exception of just being known and seen it has nothing to do with stuff you do while out at bars.


First that isn't what the clip said. Can you link to the clip where he teaches you how to change who you are?

Also, nobody remembers the losers outside of high school they simply don't even register. It is not like future PUA students are out there. They will just be new people who no one knows. Using PUA language though will give away their previous loser life though which is why I'm so against it.

No it won't. People will see what he is doing which is a negative. It reeks of desperation. If you are confident in your ability then you don't do **** like this.

Does time dilation get taught at the advance levels of PUA? I'm very curious how you can go out, have fun, get a dozen phone numbers, pick up, plus order drinks / go to the bathroom all in about three hours?

Also your logic is really messed up here. So I go out and get say five numbers each time. At the end of week one I have 25-30 numbers. WTF am I going to do with that? I can't possibly get around to dating all those girls in the next few weeks so what I've effectively done is remove girls from the future pool. In a year I'd be limited to dating nineteen year olds and new students from out of town.


Of course it is. A lot of what I do is just for lack of a better word branding. I'll talk to girls and get nothing. Odds are I'll run into them again at some point. I don't know why you feel like you need to close every deal the first time you see someone. That plus some other stuff you;ve said leads me to believe you really don't go out that much. Going out is a mission and you goal is to get as many contacts out of that mission so that you can then try to cultivate them via phone / MSN.

I don't think he stands out as a freak just that he is like half the guys at My Cottage only with him he is trying harder and it is plainly obvious.

I trust in that I'll run into her again or if not someone else. Any new girl is not the end of the world. I've known her for 30 minutes so I don't know her and there are plenty of other hot girls. There is no desperate need to make this. My goal is not to acquire 100s of numbers. Depending on the conversation I might invite her to come somewhere at some future date that I'm already going to.

What forums is this happening on? I've scanned a few and even the Masters area is full of guys who never get laid. So provide some links to the good stuff. That is all I have been asking for from day one. Every time someone joins this topic they say go here. It turns out to be garbage then they disappear and someone else says no that stuff is horrible you should go here. Are we eventually going to get to the good stuff? What I've seen of RSD is awful so far.

Why do you think your view on this would be more accurate than mine given I spend considerably more time in bars / clubs than you do?

The study that quotes that 5-7 also states that 35% of guys are in the 15+ category which was the highest option. Now some of that may be over-reporting but why do you ignore that completely?

Further what was the methodology for this study? Who are the subjects? Men my dad's age probably were in the single digits. Times have certainly changed. How were the subjects selected? The selection process alone would have a massive impact on the results.

There was a topic on 2P2 where guys posted their number and while there were a few virgins most were into 20+ category with a lot of 50+ and 100+ plus guys. Now we can't trust people to post completely honest numbers but at the same time it certainly casts doubt on the 5-7 number.

It isn't that they are not interested it is that they never actually think about it. You only consciously think about something when it is a problem. I can think of things I did in the past that improved my success but at the time I never did any of them with the intention of improving my success with women. It was simply a collateral benefit that I often didn't realize until after it materialized.

How does hanging out with other socially inept people help? How does giving money to con-artists help?

Everything can be tested. Also how is this any different than you sticking to you claims that the vast majority of guys are complete social retards and all the other claims you make and stick though despite them obviously not being reality?

You do this a lot where to make a point you either completely pretend to not understand what is being said or you just don't which is even scarier.

The topic was can someone retire at an early age if they have a large amount of money $1M and just invest it at a 8-10% return. You keep trying to say that I think someone can't live off $100k a year. Of course they can. The problem is $100k in passive income isn't $100k to live off. First you need to pay income tax. Then you need to take what is left and adjust your principle so that you account for inflation. That leaves you about $30-35k to live off but then you need to also save for big ticket items like replacing your car every eight years, home repairs, etc. You also have to allocate money to non-fun but necessary things like auto insurance and health care insurance. By the time you are all done you have less than $20k to live off. What are you going to do with that especially since now you are young and have weekdays to fill up?

What I find interesting is that I've explained this countless times and you either simply don't get it or you intentionally try to cast my assessment as insane because that is all you can do. With $20k a year in disposable income a twenty-something would be basically trapped at home and unable to do much thus why I categorize it as waiting to die.

Because we are going out and having fun rather than constantly thinking about the master plan of getting laid eventually once I complete a insane number of tasks. Just go out and have fun, be a fun person. Everything else will just happen naturally.

one of you should really setup a poll on this. i think flawless is much closer to correct on this but unlike you i understand the bias of my own experience so i would be interested in seeing how others on this forum (or OOT) view the specific question of how often average socialized guys (let's agree on 75th Percentile of overall guys) get laid by women they meet by going out and not through their social circle.

henry, i also think that while some in this thread are coming down on your side in general you seem to be taking that as universal backup for your views, when i actually think most who agree with you here in general would disagree with this specific part of your argument.

i know when i went out in Toronto when visiting a girl i was seeing i was shocked by the number of approaches i saw compared to what i was used to in NYC.

i go out multiple times a week, and i live in manhattan so you can't use the Big City dismissal here. i go out to lots of different bars in several very different parts in the city. there are some bars, which i do not go to frequently, that are explicitly meat market bars. if you go to those bars, there is an understanding that there will be approaches and you can see that this is happening around you. if you look at the majority of places where people go out to drink with there friends (i do not go to dance clubs, so i have no experience there), the majority of people there are not approaching or socializing much with people outside of the group they came with. you can argue as hard as you want about this but it's not going to make people believe you more.

so maybe you go to 30 american cities a year to drink, but you're ending up at the meat market bars which causes a distorted impression of what happens.

let's seriously do a poll (if one of you made it more people would respond) about how often guys are successfully taking home girls that they did not previously know and there was no social circle link already.

there is no way that is true (meaning i strongly suspect you remember wrong about the actual results of the poll). but also there's no way that's actually true about members of this forum.

also, even if the average guy (my 75% guy from before) is in the 15-20 range, it is unarguable that most people get laid from people they know or friends of friends. there's just no way the average socialized guy in his 20s has more than 25% lays that are the direct result of meeting someone new in a bar.

for the sake of making this thread readable, can we have responses limited to 2 or 3 points at a time so that we actually can see people respond to the meat of the other person's argument.

I actually won't disagree with this. If you go to pubs for example there is much less of what I'm talking about. Likewise bars that professionals go to after work same thing. If the professional bar is dominated by one industry then the amount of picking up increases. Likewise when patios open the amount of picking up at pubs increases (sometimes).

That being said I was talking about clubs and those drunk-fest bars in my previous posts. The assumption being if PUAs are going to put this much effort into being successful with women they would also choose a preferable venue. It doesn't make sense to pay all the money for bootcamp, DVDs, etc and then make it harder by going to places where it is harder to pick up.

There is nothing about the venues though that make one more conducive than the other it is just that people who go out to pubs don't try as much. If they did it would be different than a club but not by as much. Meeting new people is not hard and I say that as someone who grew up very shy.

I don't actually believe the poll either given some of the topics I've seen on 2P2 but I don't believe the 5-7 number either.

With respect to my bias I'm fully aware that I can't work from people I know now so I'm working from my experience of living in residence first year. That isn't completely random because we are still excluding guys who didn't go to university, guys who preferred living off-campus etc but I think it is a pretty good estimation.

The only major issue I have with it is that that predates the internet and I think there is probably a very high correlation between the popularity of the internet and a lack of social skills. When I was a teen everyone in my high school went out. There were cliques and some groups were popular and others not so much but everyone went out (even the nerdy kids) and the groups were all co-ed. I'm not sure if that is true anymore.

Again I am not disagreeing with this but I see it more as friends of acquaintances. If someone goes out a lot almost everyone in a bar can be connected to anyone else. Just because someone I met a few times introduces me to someone new doesn't mean they are part of my circle of friends. If by circle of friends we mean anyone who you have ever met then I might have to change my claim. The simple fact is that people are part of a scene and as such they show up a small set of venues repeatedly.