I think you are confused here. I did not say that. If I did, please point out the number of the post to me.

Lol, the opener is just that, an opener, which is just talking to her. There is whole realm of possibilities in between. Me not mentioning these possibilities does not automatically mean I fail to recognize their existence. I *am* in "the middle".

But you base this on the assumption that it is a given this always happens. But I know what you mean here, I have found myself shrugging and walking away when I encountered a non-responsive female, and not think anymore of it.

Maybe this neg thing is "designed" to facilitate people with a lack of confidence with the tools to "strike back" in order to feel better about themselves. Hmmm, seen in this light, I understand your point. Just as long as it is clear that a neg is not an insult.

Yes, again agreed. The end-goal, if translated in PUA-terms, if I may, is to not care when it happens, because sometimes you just encounter an angry person.

Other than that, the neg, again, "designed" as a shield for insecure people to strike back, is besides the point. I hear you.

Other than that, the instances I have met a girl who reacted very bitchy are so few and far between, I think this happened maybe 2 or 3 times in my entire life, and this includes pre-PUA days. I am 39, could have been much worse.

Agreed here again Henry. I do not know much about libertarianism (?), only that the lawyer I somethimes work with is one, and he rambles on and on about taxation being unjust because the state has a monopoly on road construction and a majority of schooling systems, but anyway.

I have been critical towards the geeks in the community as much as you have been, so we agree on that point.


You know my opinion about the horse opener (I am not very enthousiastic about it and I also explained why).

I do not know the Sven routine, nor the Redhead routine, the Brad Pitt routine, yeah well "shrugs" I do not see where that should lead to, as far as I have seen it should be an opener, I do not see much value in it other than coming off as a bit of a strange dude

The head nod was an idea that you saw on the webboard and I have no idea if this is field tested, it sounds a lot like KJ-ing to me.

Negging does work if used adequately, and I once did the phone disconnect thing with a girl that I needed, ok, wanted to talk to. Of course she called back (curiosity is a big motivator) but that was the purpose, to get her on the phone. That it will not result in her suddenly want to grab your junk is obvious to you as well, right?

Other than that, I am very much in favour of doing your own "thing".

Think of your own openers, tell *true* stories that communicate you lead an exciting life and have fun.

Concrete examples? I will not tell the opener I thought of, I will be damned if some kid runs away with this. Suffices to say it is good enough to spark some interest in the girl to continue the interaction.

Stories that I tell?
Telling a girl why people actually let their glasses come together when saying cheers.
How I saved the life (welllll...... ) of a girl rollerblading off a hillside in Spain.
How I got invited on a plane to Mexico to stay with some guys I met in the plane, only to find myself in a seriously dangerous neighbourhood in Mexico City (I am blond with blue eyes) staying in the place of the local gang-leader, who tried to convince me to marry his 15 year old daughter.
How I nearly got arrested for indecent public behavior in South-America and bluffed my way out of it.
How I all of a sudden found myself in Hong Kong on one of my business trips between members of the local triad with a *very* aggressive factory owner using this environment to try and have me commit to a deal I did not want to make.
How I got lost in the middle of nowhere in India,and so on.

You think these internet geeks can match their canned stuff they all use as the wonder of social mechanics with my true life stories?

These are stories about my life. All true, no canned stuff. So, delivered with congruence. Can I take my t-shirt off now Henry?

If you don't have exciting stories? Well, time to change your life I would say.

The only difference with me telling these stories is that now I know what to convey, and how to tell these stories in a way they indeed let these qualities shine through, without sounding arrogant, self-centered, or just plain stupid and geeky.

I am not unaware of it, but I didn;t think that is what we were talking about, other than that I went to an extreme, came back from that extreme and now find myself exactly in that spot, in the middle of being socially inept and being consciously aloof.

I really do not care anymore. But I had to learn how to do this.

I have no experience with strippers, but if I have to guess what kind of girls these are, based on the very few things I know, I guess you are right there. My best guess is that there is a lot of trauma present with these girls.

No I didn't. Please to be stopping making stuff up? I answered your question above already.

Yeah, by keyboard jockeys, you have any idea how much I despise these kids?

Again, I would never dream of calling myself an "artist", but I do have some experience with being with women. But to go on a webboard and present a routine or technique as *the holy grail* is stupid imo. The only thing I can do is give advice to the best of my knowledge and abilities, if asked for it. But I might be wrong, or have a bad read on the situation.

Funny, Henry and me posted both in the relationship advice thread. In a sense, we are there both doing the same thing that PUA meant for me, giving advice and possibly asking for advice to others.

I think Henry has no trouble with that part of PUA, it is the concrete examples that he tilts about, and I can see where he is coming from.

Everybody has their own truth.
And you use something else to reach the same goal. Whatever it is.
And that is perfectly ok imho.

I have been pushed towards the poster boy role for PUA in this thread, but I am simply not gonna go there, I am not blind for the flaws, just as I am not blind for the good things it can bring.

I deal with a lot of rich people, and I find they have the common trait of being very generous indeed, if not asked for it. I believe many people would enjoy being generous, if given the opportunity. Who doesn't like helping people and make them feel good?

And they all know there are some orbiters that are only in it for their own benefit, and I see them generally smiling and not really caring about it.

After which they will pounce at an opportune time of course.

A small example happened last week, where one of the former employees asked for help of the company owner, a wealthy man.
Now, the owner has helped said person out with personal loans, has done numerous things to support his family, and whatnot.

Said former employee walked in last week, sat down, and asked the company owner for a loan of 250.000 dollar to set up his own company.

I believe the exact answer was: "You still owe me 15.000 dollar that I lend to you 3 years ago and you never ever showed the slightest intention to pay me back. You are too cheap to buy my daughters a birthday-present. I invite you and your family to the Formula 1 race, you did not even had the courtesy to simply say "thank you". The answer is no. Now get out of my face, you know the way."

You told a story of using the real/fake fingernail neg on Facebook and the girl called you David (or some name with a D) because she recognized it.

You might be which is why this is so hard for you to discuss. As much as you claim I don't understand the PUA community the truth is you actually don't. You had a positive experience with it so assume that is what PUA material is about when you are the exception. The people using the canned/scripted and pathetic openers are the PUA community in so much that they dominate it by sheer numbers.

If a guy never puts a girl in a situation where she feels caged she won't be bitchy to him. The objective is not to "strike back" but rather to learn how to not be in this situation in the first place.

I hate to point this out to you but to hang up the phone then you already had her on the phone so didn't need her to call back.

Other than that, I am very much in favour of doing your own "thing".

Think of your own openers, tell *true* stories that communicate you lead an exciting life and have fun.


Possibly I confused you with MS Slick. I remember someone calling him "the bomb" and at least three endorsements. Since this topics has been really dominated by a few people I assumed you but if you don't support Brad P's stuff then you don't. That though is what PUA material is -- if not those particular examples then very similar ones.

Well this is the problem and part of why this topic is so horrible. You defend the PUA material but you don't actually endorse any of the actual content. You are defending the impact PUA material had on your life which is not reflective at all of the experience the vast majority of people exposed to it have. That The Secret sold so many millions of copies is an embarrassment to humanity. That being said there are nevertheless some people who are better off for having studied it -- they just make up a minuscule fraction of the total number of people who actually tried it. You can't evaluate something based on the exceptions -- what matters is the actual content and the results of the majority.

Guys I was the one who started about Brad P. One other person said he was the nuts. I have no idea why I'm responding. I feel gay for defending an opener.

I don't care what you believe Henry, but when you say that the horse girl opener cannot work you are simply wrong. Your belief system or world view or whatever is flawed on this point. Here's a few sentences from the book with Brad's openers (the shocker = horse girl and similar openers)
"I've tried many different types of openers, and nothing works nearly as well as THE SHOCKER. I've taught my students all 8 types of openers, and they've had the most success when using THE SHOCKER."

This is not from some nerds mentally masturbating on a forum. He has approached hundreds of girls with that exact opener, with great success. His students have approached many girls with the same opener, with success. They've tried everything from saying 'hi', to opinion openers, to direct, to situational, and they've found the shocker works best. In practice, with real women.

It's not meant to be insulting at all. It will make her laugh, sometimes she will even role play along and say that she really was the horse girl.

Have you ever been around people who get involved in MLM? It is a lot like this. Go to a Amway / BIM / Mary Kay / Canadian Diamond Traders/ Lexxus meeting -- you should be able to find one at a motel near you. You'll hear a bunch of claims about how everyone is making so much money. I was at a Lexxus one a few years back and on the smoke break one of the recruiters actually tried to use his 3-series as a prop in getting me to sign up (which I got a chuckle out of). I'm not retarded so I didn't attend voluntarily but I was there to keep an acquaintance from becoming a chump. A lot of people in that room were not as lucky and they signed up and handed over their $3800. They were told by the leader and his students that they would make $20k a month. How many do you estimate went on to do that?

Obviously Brad is going to say this stuff works -- if he told people it didn't they wouldn't give him money.

Henry:

You are right that PUA stuff is largely ineffective because it is counterproductive towards trying to replace genuine social skills, and almost all PUA products seek to place one's confidence in external behavior instead of internal behavior.

The story of the guy orbiting your girlfriend before approaching with a "neg" is an obvious example. I'll explain for others reading: here he was scared to talk to her because he put the girl above him mentally. He lost all his value before he opened his mouth. When he finally musters enough courage to speak, he put all his hopes in what he was saying (external) instead of allowing himself to believe that who he is (internal) would be attractive enough.

However, I have a small nitpick: I believe a bad (or average) looking guy, that is very socially refined and good with women, can approach with nearly anything (bark like a dog, stare at her, you name it) and have his chances largely unaffected. I have seen this many times in real life. For intellectual reasons I thought you might like to know.

AW

This is where it was clear to me that this discussion is completely useless.

Alamo, I don't know why you're wasting time.

I have looked at PUA stuff too. to me it is just a crutch to help get people who otherwise would not be talking to women, to talk to women. After 6 months of going out and actively approaching women, most people figure out that its a) not that hard, and b) their own style that matches their personality.

ARROGANT JERK. what is with your word choice there, -admitting-... you are so full of crap. you claim to be such a worldly man that is friends with all social groups and have 20 years of university studying under your belt. but you are just an arrogant jerk. im not embarrased about it. you are the one who thinks that me, and anyone else who goes this route should be embarrased.

no, i dont know Brad P and never said he was pathetic. I QUOTED YOU calling people who study PUA stuff pathetic, and think YOU ARE PATHETIC for that.

well thanks for your honesty! you sure are conceeding a lot there with your honesty!

lol. mr slick didnt make a big deal about it at all. it presented it without much emotion, just as a piece of evidence against you and your stupid positions.

you are wrong, you dont understand what negging is.

EDIT, i was about to delete this post and then read your next post Henry. Where you say, -This assumes she cares to have the guy's approval.- AND you go on to say more stuff that is wrong.

Again, you dont understand what negging is. And really, if you think about it, it makes sense you dont understand it. I mean, how could you? You have never done this PUA stuff and never want to do it.

Sorry bro. I have been pretty b usy the last couple of days but I don't remember introducing the Brad P stuff? Are you sure that wasn't someone else? FYI I disagree with the horse opener. I think it's insulting and not a proper neg. I prefer a neg to be different-say you're walking with a girl, and she's not walking incredibly fast-look at her and say "pick it up, you walk slower than my grandmother", with a smile on your face. Stuff like that that is not too personal but still shows her that you're not a servile little bitch.

I'll try to catch up on this thread in the next day or so.

Yeah it's all a big conspiracy. I can see that now. I've been on a bootcamp with Brad, went out to clubs with him. I guess the women he approached were all actresses. That girl he took into the toilet for 15 minutes was obviously paid for that. All the girls he talked to on the bootcamp were part of the conspiracy!

Henry, ur dumm.

Men do some competing for the attention of females and always have, but this is partially countered by the innate need born in our ancestral environment for cooperation among males. Not that I'm saying you're wrong about anything, but the mechanism for this social contract was vague and I don't think men would otherwise have felt it necessary to avoid harmfully competitive behavior. Female humans and male peacocks don't avoid it.

As far as clothes go, it's pretty interesting that men almost always want to dress the same (e.g. tuxedos) as all the other men and women never want to wear the same thing as any other woman.

Bros before hos goes back a long way.

I'm sure people actually sell stuff in MLM too, but its unrealistic and not optimal.