This thread is really starting to suck guys. How about you express your ideas and then add to them instead of taking exception with every sentence that each other writes?

henry i try to reply to your points as directly as possible, but you keep squirming away. i am EXTREMELY incredulous that you are as worldly as you claim given the way you talk.


"My advice is to devote the time and effort into actualy having social standing." YOU ARE A FOOL, THAT IS WHAT PUA STUFF IS. PEOPLE DEVOTING TIME TO HAVING SOCIAL STANDING.

I will say this. for a long time when i was younger i didn't say to girls "i like how you are so funny" because i thought it was morally wrong to say that sort of thing, she shouldn't care what i have to think, i didn't want to pass judgement on people. IT TURNS out, that to pick up girls it works very well to judge girls like that. SO NOW, tell me henry, since there are jerks in this world, since there are people liek you who naturally get girls by perhaps judging them a lot... and I didn't used to do it and I never got girls... AM I the manipulative jerk now? Give me a break.


you are just completely wrong. If i want to become a soccer superstar, but right now i am bad at soccer, how should i think when i go onto that field to play? Should i recognize that i suck at soccer and be content? or should i constantly tell myself i am a good player?

i think faking social status is a particularly easy example for you to say faking it is bad. but lets say there is a loser, and he would literally cut off his pinky to be with a girl. should he accept those thoughts and go with it? should he tell the girl that? LOL, see how stupid your points are? HE OBVIOUSLY has to lie, both to himself and to the girl, he has to pretend like he doesn't think that way until he actually doesn't think that way.


WELL YOUR IMPRESSION IS COMPLETELY WRONG DUDE. I have been in the PUA stuff for years, so I know, and you don't know. COME ON. are you honestly weighing up your facile impressions of PUA stuff to my actual experience? i am TELLING YOU, that is a big goal inside of PUA.

CAN I CALL SOMEONE A RETARD ON HERE?? HENRY WHAT THE HELL DID YOU STUDY FOR 10 YEARS???? people have no frickken clue why they do anything. the subconcious part of the mind is much more powerful than the concious part. girls are extremely emotional, where do emotions come from? girls have no CLUE what they want most of the times. ACTUALLY, i know, since you studied in university for so long you have become very logical. yet most people in the world are not very logical, they haven't been to university, they weren't raised like that, they aren't that smart (in this sense at least) and they do not logically think things through.

also you threw in that sentence "we know why we make concious decisions," but barely any of the decisions we make are made conciously, they all come from the much more powerful subconcious.

as to whether they talk this stuff through on message boards, yes they do. But your whole point is that that stuff is useless because experiences change emotions, and thus how we act with girls - not that intellectualizing. So whether they talk about it on the message boards doesnt matter much (i dont think the main benefit in PUA comes through "solving problems" on message boards)

dude... wow... why are you going off on this tangent here about the logistics of a guy actually buying stuff to peacock with? there are different reasons why peacocking might be good. if someone goes to a club with a retarded hat, they will talk to more girls. so by peacocing, someone gets more practice. they get more practice being the center of attention so they get used to it. also, when they learn to pull that off it works too, it is value and girls are attracted to it. IT is a gimmick to trick girls (again some jerks, i dunno, maybe you do this, might naturally where retarded stuff and get girls)... so when a loser uses some of these gimmicks to get succes, they gain the good experience and confidence, and can eventually ditch it, OR if they want keep it.


wow you are talking so foolishly. PUA doesn't claim to help people look good, or get in shape. There are A LOT of people who are cool people but want to pick up more girls. Why cant you understand that? we are not trying to help the nerdiest stupidest, biggest jerks out here. When i say "loser" that is shorthand. WE are talking here about something very simple. PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PICK UP MORE GIRLS.

what does PUA have to do with underminding self esteem? it is about a community of people supporting each other to overcome a problem they have.



Henry... i find your thoughts on this incredibly arrogant and self centered. i am probably done posting in this thread. true, i get satisfaction from seeing your foolish thoughts and refuting them in an absolutely convincing manner... however i know you won't learn anything, dont want to learn anything (where in this thread have you said -cool interesting point i was wrong-- ?????),and i haven't learned anything at all except how determined to remain ignorant you are, and how much of a jerk arturious is.

mr slick, i enjoyed your analogy between henry and a kid with down syndrome. i personally would LOVE a 5 minute video seeing henry interacting with people. then maybe a short essay describing a day in his life.

and you are wrong too. the basis of good debate is specifically responding to the other person. BAD DEBATE is characterized by exactly what you want here, which is ignoring what the other person says. the problem here is that henry doesn't have content of value to add to the debate.

Bruiser, you need to take it down about 5 notches kiddo. If the thread is tilting you that much, go post in OOT or somewhere else. The pro-PUA side has doing a great job without your input thus far.

Would it be possible to transition the discussion a bit?

It seems as if we're starting to get bogged down in the minutiae of the methodology behind PUA rather than it's viability.

Is PUA a tool or a lifestyle?

If the former, then yes, it can be used (in combination with other things) to talk to women. If the latter, then it is akin to a llama priest with an empty prayer wheel (yes!).

If we want to debate whether or not PUA is an effective tool, that's fine too. But let's at least all try to get on the same page as to what PUA is exactly.

why do i need to take it down 5 notches? jerk. giving me orders...

cool then you go on to give me suggestions on what to do. Thanks, but i trust myself much more than you to decide what to do with my time. your last sentence is manipulative and pathetic.

No I'm not.

says who?
no it's not and i never said you can't respond to anyone or you should ignore them.
See how annoying it is when you make disjointed posts like this?

Just make a little effort to post better so that people can follow along what you're trying to say. All of this quoting and disagreeing with every single sentence separately is absurd.

are you for real? part of the problem in this thread is that it has been discussed in generalties without refrence to specifics. about everyone saying PUA was fundementally flawed (without a discussion of spcifics).

i dont really care one way or the other if its a lifestyle or tool, what are you even getting at? but if someone wants to make it a life style why do you have to pass your negative judgement on them? it might mess them up in someways but if all they care about is picking up girls, then it is entirely logical for PUA to be a lifestyle. just like lance armstrong's LIFE IS BIKING, like RONAHLDIHINOs LIFE WAS SOCCER... that is how people become excellent at things.

tiedup, you just want to bring other people down.

sly caveat, please don't compare how i post to how you post. I WILL NEVER EVER post anything remotely like the stuff you produce. not even if i have alzhtemers disease will i degrade so. the difference between you and me is that i actually have content to communicate. all you do in response to what i said was "no way dude, ain't so!!!"

May you get "Alzhtemers" disease!

Seriously, just stop posting (or some mod do it for him?) so the rest of us can have a reasonable discussion.

I was done with this topic but I figured this post needed a reply.

I actually have trouble following your posts. You seem to be emotional when responding which makes it difficult to understand at times what you are trying to say. If I avoid something it is not intentional.

I was specifically talking about a topic on a PUA site where an individual was explaining a strategy where you would nod to someone to get them to nod back. The hope being that the girl would not see your nod and would see the stranger's nod and assume the guy was more popular than he is. This is not instruction on increasing social status. This is instruction on how to fake social status.

Also being part of a PUA group is probably the best way to ruin social standing. If it works or doesn't is irrelevant. It has a massive social stigma and people will think unfavourably if they found out.

I find this very hard to understand. I'm not avoiding it I just don't know what you are getting at.

The analogy is hard to follow. I think the way to approach it is to develop the person. What I read yesterday was all about creating the veneer of a developed person. I didn't see any discussion about self-improvement.

Getting laid a couple of times isn't going to make someone change. You've been at this for years do you feel confident yet?


Post some links so we have a better idea.

Because the majority of the people posting on those sites are losers and most of their posts is just talk. I would bet any amount that the group from Toronto if I met them would be a bunch of losers. I can see why it wouldn't undermine self-esteem for someone who believes so much of our consciousness is actually not accessible to us but for people who are reflective they will realize reality.


Also HB while it does stand for Hot Babe also stands for Hot Bitch. The definition when you hover over it is says : Hot Babe / Hot Bitch, if proceeded by a number, the looks rating of the girl. If you goal is to set the record straight then do so but don't claim it means Hot Babe when the definition is right there in front of me.

purposively imitating the behavior of others with the explicit goal of having sexual intercourse with more or higher quality women is discouraged for several sensible reasons. they are:

i) when judging prospective friends males value trustworthiness and honesty (proxies for loyalty and reciprocity), or at least transparent predictability with respect to social strategy. do i really need to explain how trying to be a pua is a strong superficial indicator that someone is a poor ally?

ii) having an implicit social norm condemning the active cultivation of the skills required to seduce women prevents a mutually unprofitable competition and a gross misallocation of time and energy. here's a very simple example:

there's 1 woman and 2 suitors. unaided, the two suitors are equally likely to have sexual intercourse with the woman. if suitor a starts wearing fancy clothes while suitor b does not his chances increase from 50 to 100%. if suitor b starts wearing fancy clothes while a does not his chances increase from 50 to 100%. both have an incentive to increase their investment in fancy clothes. however, if both buy fancy clothes they are right back where they started - 50-50. they've wasted time and resources and neither has benefitted. it makes far more sense to have an agreement (or social more) which states, ''neither one of us will waste our resources on fancy clothes''.

the same applies to ''learning how to converse with women''. it is sensible for males as a group to discourage it because if we were all forced to do it to maintain our relative status we'd spend all of our time and energy on mutually wasteful competitions ("the red queen"). this is, more or less, why the great majority of men dress poorly and dont bother trying with women, and why a certain small fraction of the population is suffered to do so without condemnation (they're so much better that it doesnt much matter if they improve themselves further. think patrick antonius or brad pitt.). this applies equally well to certain social strategies or ''personality types''.

arguing that being a pua is a-okay is a waste of time. it's like arguing that you should be able to butt in line or steal people's seats when they go to the bathroom. you'll never win because your position, if held by everyone, would be (very) harmful to the group.

Vanveen- I pretty much disagree with everything you said, but I'll start with this. The reason the great majority of men dress poorly and don't bother trying with women is not because they feel it is sensible to do so as group. It's because they don't know how to dress and because they are scared to talk to women and have low self-esteem.

I thought bruiser was making strong points. He's just tilting now...

If I understand the guys arguing against PU correctly, you do NOT have any objections against improving oneself to become better with women. You just don't agree with the PUA way.
I think you believe that pick up is wearing funny clothes, saying memorized, weird openers and routines while pretending to be something you're not.

To some people, it is. You can't say what PU can do for a man by looking at the average posters on a random PUA forum. Compare it to poker. A very small percentage actually makes a good living from poker. Even among the people that read 2+2, are members of coaching sites, and have all this information available to them, still only a small percentage has a good winrate at midstakes or higher. That's because getting good at poker requires HARD WORK.

In PU this is much more so. Not only does it require a lot of hard work, but it requires you to face your fears over and over again. It requires you to look at your biggest flaws and weaknesses and improve them, while it is human nature to ignore or deny our flaws. You have to do many things that will feel weird, uncomfortable, awkward or nearly impossible and you're going to have to suffer a lot of blows to your self-esteem to improve. So of course nearly everybody in the community isn't good.

I would type more but I'm ****ing tired and can't think any more.