it's not for them to justify, it's for consumers to justify. if nobody buys it, they'll go out of business.

but they likely are ok with it b/c consumers know

- it's a small release and/or
- difficult and time consuming to make and/or
- uses expensive ingredients and
- it's like $2 to $7 more than what people are used to spending on great beer. in real dollar terms, it's a very cheap splurge. only in the beer world does the very best/rarest stuff cost so relatively little*

95% or more of the beer I drink costs $3 or less per can, much of it less than $2 per can. but sometimes I splurge on different or rare or weird stuff, and in real dollar terms it doesn't add up to too much. maybe a few hundred bucks a year. or, the cost of one very nice bottle of wine or champagne at a restaurant.

*there are other examples of beers that do cost crazy amounts but those are extremely limited

I dunno, I'm kind of with FeralCreature here. It's why I don't even bother buying DFH beers anymore. I bought a bunch, justifying my splurge with, "Well, it sounds good, and it's only a couple bucks more, so I'll try it out." But it was never significantly better than stuff I could get for much cheaper. And over time, all those $12 4-packs that weren't great just caused a price fatigue. I got skeptical, cynical. And it's not just that brewery, either. I'm sick of $10-15 bombers of completely average beer. Sure, that's only a couple bucks more, and it's just one bottle. But I'm tired of it. There's not a chance I'm going to buy your double-digit price 22oz bottle unless I've heard overwhelmingly great things, or it's a sour/barrel-aged. I'm sorry, but in a world where I can get 4 16o cans of SN Torpedo for $8-9, I'm not going to pay a dollar more for a third of the volume unless it's truly special.

Next week's rant: Breweries less than a year old with sour/wild/barrel programs. Preview: "No no, the infection is intentional."

Feral,

I don't really get your point. There's really good scotch for $50 and really good scotch for $500. Some of the $500 scotch I feel is worth the premium price, and some isn't. Can say the same thing about wine, clothing, cars, whatever. Some beer costs more than other beer. You either thinks it's better enough to be worth the premium price or you don't. Just like all other products, I think some of the expensive beers are worth paying for and others aren't. This all seems very obvious, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

I agree with you here, and I'm a guy who has a boatload of Abyss, Hair of the Dog, Bourbon County and other expensive stuff in the cellar. But if I buy a $10 bomber from a brewery I don't know well, and I think it's not worth it, well, I'm pretty much done with that brewery. So breweries with overpriced stuff that doesn't warrant the cost probably end up hurting their long-term business with that pricing strategy.

But Abyss for $12? Every year I'll be coming back for more. And I just got done drinking a bomber of Stone RuinTen that I paid $9 for -- and I'm disappointed now that I only bought three.

My point is that none of the above ever applied to beer until the recent American micro-brewery craze. A crate of Westvleteren will cost you 40 euros if you buy it at the monastery, of which 10 euros is a deposit. So we're talking less than 1,50 per beer and this is for a super exclusive high quality product. To me, charging $10 for a beer just flies in the face of tradition and that breweries that are relative newcomers on the market feel the need to charge that much irks me.

Hill Farmstead is as good (or at least as hyped) as any brewery in the US and they charge $8ish for a 750ml fill. now they are like a 4 man operation on family owned land in the middle of absolutely nowhere, so I would think that keeps their costs structures a bit low (though shipping raw materials to them is probably a pain). and their owner/brewer is a bit of an anti-capitalist oddball which contributes to their prices as well.

The Alchemist charges $3/can for Heady Topper which is the highest rated beer on beer advocate. similarly they are a smallish operation in Vermont and they make one beer only (in mostly cans), so I would think they are very efficient cost structure wise.

why these places charge so relatively little for the highest quality product while other breweries charge much more is a fair question, sure. my impression is that (one key factor anyways) is the more aggressive pricers are gladly raising prices as the market demands. Heady Topper literally sells out everything they make by Friday afternoon every week, and they are a 3 hour drive from Boston, more from NYC, and don't distribute farther than they can throw a rock. could they charge a lot more and sell just as much? absolutely yeah I think so. but for whatever reason they don't. maybe they would have trouble raising capital to expand, maybe they don't feel like it, I dunno.

I don't think that makes them wrong or right. sports teams that sell out 100% of their games, even though scalpers can easily flip every ticket for 2x the cost, are in a similar spot. they can raise prices and get away with it, but they might piss off a huge % of their fan base by being aggressive.

Kneel-

Hill Farmstead also does an amazing job with barrel aging but the cost is much higher with some beers costing $20 per 375ml at the brewery.

Don't the monks who make Westy sell beer solely to fund their living expenses? They're not really in it for the cash, which I would imagine is a factor in their low pricing. (Funding renovations at the abbey was the goal behind the one-time U.S. release last winter, I think.)

plaster, Feral:

If you're using Westy as a comparison to other beers sold at retail, you should compare to their retail pricing - which was $85 for 6 small bottles when they did that.

My thoughts on this topic are exactly the same as plaster expressed in post 829.

El D,

I think there's a definite bubble in the market, where it's great that so many people want to try stuff from new breweries, but there's a ton of places charging premium prices for really pretty pedestrian beer. Like plaster, I'll buy that beer one time, tops, be disappointed, and not give them another shot.

And as an aside: get ready to have worse and worse barrel-aged beers. There are only so many barrels out there, and the BA-beer craze has way outpaced the supply of quality used barrels.

RDH,

Agreed, and coming full circle to my post that started this topic, that's exactly why I asked about those bottles. Used to be just a handful of awesome craft brewers putting out occasional special beers that cost a lot, but now it's all over the place, and I get really annoyed when I shell out premium $$ for a bottle and it's not that great.

Getting back to the actual drinking part of the thread (though the pricing discussion is certainly worthy and interesting), I just cannot get enough of Stone's RuinTen. A ton of hops with a little bit of booziness, just right. But taking down an entire 9.7% bomber by myself means I can't really drive anywhere for a while afterward.

To me, this isn't quite on the level of Pliny, Heady, etc., but it's definitely near the top of the second tier.

All,

Speaking of sour beers, had some 2011 Russian River Consecration last night on tap at http://citybeerstore.com/our-menu/ - so delicious! Intense sourness balanced w/ lots of strong sweet fruity flavor. Lot of wine notes to this beer.

Also had Midnight Sun, Panty Peeler Belgian Style Triple. Was not into that very much. Sort of a flat/muted taste, not a whole lot of flavor going on here. Wouldn't have pegged it as a Belgian Triple style if tasting blind, would prob think it was something more like a wheat beer.

to me it tasted just like a massive hop bomb without enough balance I think. I'm not sure I preferred it really over the regular Ruination.

I can see that. I guess I don't mind the lack of balance.

Have you tried the Avery XX anniversary double IPA? That may be more up your alley. 9.7% versus the 10.8 of RuinTen (think I mixed those two ABVs up earlier), and it feels more balanced to me. I think that one is really good, too.

no...I haven't seen that around here I don't think. I don't drink a ton of massive/double IPA (except when I can get my hands on Heady Topper), especially this time of year. there are just so so many great IPA's that are easily found, my rotation these days is something like

Troegs Perpetual
Ithaca Flower Power
Hop Notch IPA
CBC The Audacity of Hops (though they classify that as Belgian/Double)

I'm holding it to a high standard though, the worst I can really say about it is that I preferred Enjoy By and I'm not sure I would seek it out over Ruination

and just as I type that, I see that Avery XX is going to be on the tap list for a local hop throwdown event


BEER
* Allagash Prince Tuesday
* Avery 20th Anniversary
* Cisco DIPA
* Dogfish Head 120 Minute IPA
* Green Flash Hop Odyssey Imperial Red Rye
* Green Flash Hop Odyssey Citrus Session
* Founders Spite
* High Horse Brewing Satisfaction IPA
* Hill Farmstead/Amagher Collaboration DIPA
* Jack's Abbey 2nd Anniversary
* Lagunitas Little Sumpin' Sumpin'
* Port Mongo IPA
* Port Wipeout IPA
* Pretty Things Meadowlark
* Stone 7th Anniversary
* Stone Sublimely Self Righteous
* Tree House Sap
* Trillium Pilot Batch #1 (HHTD exclusive)
* Trillium Pilot Batch #2 (HHTD exclusive)
* Trillium Pilot Batch #3 (HHTD exclusive)
* Trillium Pilot Batch #4 (HHTD exclusive)
* Victory Ranch DIPA (Mosaic, Simcoe, Citra)

(Partial list. More to follow...)

I didnt even know this thread existed, I always posted in the TLDR Lounge thread. Good convo in here.

Im with KB4Z on the RuinTen, I felt like I was duped into drinking a Barleywine on a Thursday night! Dont get me wrong it was good, but not great like people had been telling me pretty out of balance. I realize DIPAs arent really about balance but all I got was booze and dank hops. I much prefer Enjoy By, Im a big fan of the big citrus hoppy DIPAs over the dank sticky ones.

^ it's all about personal taste... no one says everyone should drink barely wines.

I love them, but I can only drink them in moderation... and they are extremely complex with signature personalities.

I have my Double DBA firestone walker ordered... I will post up a review when they come in.

I actually love barleywines, but I just wasnt expecting it. And a 22oz bomber for myself was a bit much, I did like it but I felt it this morning.

All,

Pretty excited having this bar open a couple blocks from my house now:



https://www.facebook.com/MikkellerBarSanFrancisco

I was wondering about that place when I saw it on the list for Zwanze Day. Looks awesome.

I can't comment on most of those beers but Mikkeller/Evil Twin (they're brothers) are the 2 most overpriced and overrated breweries I've experienced.

Most of the Mikkeller IPA's are barely drinkable by the time they hit the Midwest. They're also crazy overpriced. Even as a retailer (straight from distributor) I think I paid nearly $80, maybe $90, for the Mikkeller single hop series case and most of the hops were muted and had way too much sediment. Same with the Mikkeller 10 series.

Evil Twin is even worse IMO. I've purchased multiple kegs and cases of everything from pilsners to imperial stouts for my bar. I've been to the brewery he contracts to produce most his products (Westbrook in Charleston). I've looked at the grain bills on the fermenters and they were a mess. Starts with a neatly printed sheet and ends up a scribbled mess. Sometimes I wonder if he even brews a pilot batch. Only beer I've thought was worth the $ was Imperial Biscotti Break but that gets old quick unless you like dental visits for cavity fills from all the sugar. Won't even get into what I've been told about his personality.

Just seems like both breweries' motto is "throw enough **** at the wall, something's bound to stick". They don't excel at any particular style yet charge worldclass prices.

Haven't had much from either, although I do agree with you on Imperial Biscotti Break -- good beer, but a sugar bomb.

As far as the Mikkeller bar goes, looks nice -- but $7.50 for a pint of Union Jack? Or AleSmith IPA? $8 for about 8.5 ounces of St. Bernardus 8? That just seems ridiculous ... or are those standard SF prices?

squash, plaster:

Here's a roughly edited IM chat I had w/ a friend re: Mikkeller Bar.

--
ok the space is beautiful and they have some great beers - some regular mikkeler stuff, some special mikkeler stuff, and a bunch of awesome other stuff on tap but jesus christ it is just ABSURD expensive. as you know i am not shy about paying excessive money for alcohol but this was ABSURD.

the prices range from $6.5-10 per beer, average prob like $7.50-8, which you might react like me and say oh that sounds a little high but not too bad for belgians etc except almost every beer, regardless of ABV, is an 8oz pour.

Friend: oh, wow that's ****ed up

we had let's see lil mikkel (bad) and texas ranger (good), rodenbach grand cru (good) and mikk milk stout (mediocre), olv lava smoked stout (awesome) and ihardcore imperial ipa (blah) and a super hoppy IPA not on this menu that was good and the pumpernickel porter which was mediocre

Friend: yah, had that milk stout too and wasn't impressed

so like a couple of awesome things and a lot of so-so stuff and for four 8oz beers each that was $40 w/ tax+tip each. wtf!

Friend: gross. that's outrageous

it is really absurd.like stuff that CBS would charge $7 for a 12oz pour or 11oz pour is like $9 for an 8oz pour. also they have rosamunde like sausage+fries for $14. $14 seems a lot for sausage!

Friend: yeah, **** that place. OVER IT

i basically will just go there to try some specific thing once and then like smash the glass and leave!

Friend: haha take the glass with you

it would be super easy to take glasses since they are so small they'd fit so nicely in hoodie pockets and they are pretty sweet! haha

anyway, that is my review
aka
**** that place!

i dont see how it survives without changing. i do not believe SF has beer culture to support an $8+/8oz beer place.

Friend: not when there are so many other places with more reasonable prices and a better selection.


i guess looking at the menu they have a couple of pints like the ninkasi pils etc the more "standard" stuff. but even that right - a pint of drakes 1500 $6.75! well, at least that is just high, not ABSURD
--

So, in summary, way overpriced even for SF, and not super impressed by most of what I tried. One of my friends there was a Swedish guy and he commented how they brought both Scandinavian beer and prices.

I do like Beer Geek Breakfast a lot, though!