I have been gradually widening my range that I raise limpers with at 10 and 25NL and I find myself getting into some really tough spots. Is raising limpers in mid to late position with marginal hands like suited connectors or small pairs more +ev than simply limping behind and trying to stack these donks off?

I have been doing a lot of thinking how to improve my game and I see most of the advice is be more aggressive. I am starting to think I should be adjusting to my opposition a bit more instead of just trying to be aggressive as a standard style. If I know I am at a very passive table (as most are at uNL) I feel like it makes more sense to just limp behind with a wide range of hands and just stack players. I guess I don't understand the reason why we raise limpers in the first place, can someone help me out there?

I understand that I should be working on getting better at these limits to prepare myself for moving up and playing tougher opposition, but should I just be trying to win money or try new things and put myself in marginal situations to get better?

Thanks in advance...

you're raising to take it down pf or to isolate bad players.

scenario 1: limpers don't have a good hand and the last thing they want to do is put in a lot of money with garbage, they also know their hand is garbage or else they would raise.

scenario 2: should be obvios, you want to play headsup in position against bad players.

with that said, now is there a point is raising limpers with marginal hands because soooo many people limp and call raises you wont see too many heads up pots and so on?

obv depends on table conditions, if there are 3 ppl that will never fold you don't want to run pure steals but it's still not bad to raise nice sc or pps because it's easier to get the money in postflop.
if you don't like variance just call but expect to take down small pots on the flop when you flop your set or trips or whatever.

I'm not too much into raising limpers with marginal hands even in positon and especially not from MP, where, given a passive game, chances are, I'm gonna get cold called behind me and have to play oop for the rest of the hand (I play $25NL)

But after starting this thread it kinda "clicked" again for me and I'm focussing on positional play even more now, meaning that I play way tighter than I did before from EP and MP and way looser than I did before from CO and BTN. I will also not defend my blinds without a real hand as this was the general advice in the thread above, but steal first in with a HUGE range (pretty much anything, but the worst suited hands + anything at least one-gap-connected)

A lot of our opponents play "Fit-Or-Fold-Poker", so even if you get called, you will be able to take it down on the Flop in position. And sometimes you just flop a good hand or a draw and will even get a free card on the turn most of the times.

The problem with raising limpers IMO is that they have already declared, that they wanna play this hand, so it's significantly more difficult to take it down preflop against limpers than it is against the blinds who have random hands. So with good implied odds hands like small pairs, suited A's or sc's I will pretty much overlimp most of the time in position and try and play a pot of the size I want it to be postflop - big pot if I hit big, small pot if I hit small/nothing.

Sugar nut

Before raising (punish/isolate) limpers I consider the following things:
* Position. I consider raising (punish/isolating limpers) only MP3, CO and Button.
* Players on my left. Are they known/unknown, tight/loose, how frequently they fold to cbet/steal.
* Limpers. How many limpers limps, are they known/unknown, tight/loose, how frequently they fold to CBET.
* Hole Cards

For example, If I am on the button with XX and UTG limps, who is tight-passive and his Folds Continuation Bet stat is high: 70%. I know he limps with any pocket, any suited ace, any suited connector. Usually he is in the "fit&fold" mode and most flops miss him and he just check/fold most of the flops. Folded to me. Now, I check the blinds - they are quite tight and also easy to outplay on the flop. So I raise any two cards. Even 72o, 69o, J4s, AA, K9. Any TWO cards. Usually blinds fold and limper call (sometimes he folds too - it's fine). Flop is XXX and I cbet 100% of the time and it is amazing how weak the most players are - they fold most of the time and you get easy money without risk to going broke. Because you never-ever go broke with J2s and other similar junk hands without flopping a monster (very long shot). If he didn't fold to CBET then give up, your hand is done and move to next hand.

But if limper is a loose or unknown or his fold to cbet is low 40-50% then I need cards. A9, KT, Q9 but sometimes I even fold these, if blinds are loose and there are chance that they may call, then I need cards.

If there are 2 or more limpers, I choose my spots more carefully or if my position is weaker (I mean CO or MP3).

Also punishing limpers are fun but I found one big leak. For example, some days ago I got 44 on the button, I even didn't watched my hole cards, I saw weak limper limps EP and blinds were very tight. I raised to isolate/punish limper and both blinds and limper call. Flop was 24T. SB donks, BB folds and limper raises and I was ready to hit my fold button. Then I saw my had and I thought "WTF, set! You are folding a set?! I raise here". I raised, SB shoves and limper calls. I called. SB slowplays aces and limper had 22. I was very close to hit fold button because I didn't played cards but players on the button.

I think it depends on how many limpers are in the pot, how badly the limpers play postflop, and how aggressively the blinds play. You also need to look at the EV of limping in behind with something prospective that could break multiple stacks if it hits.

There are certainly arguments in favor of either, but if I'm holding something prospective like scs or a small/medium PP I'll look for these things in the limpers if I plan to raise.

There are 2 or fewer
They fold a good deal to raises
If they call the raise, they're likely to fold to a cbet when they miss

I think this is a better spot to raise in (of course) if the blinds have a low defense %. Note that the cards really don't matter in this situation, but it's nice to have something to fall back on.

I think limping carries more EV when:

There are 3 or more limpers
The blinds aren't known for raising light in these spots
The limpers call too much postflop

In cases like this the cards are more important, but the reward/risk ratio is much more favorable and IMO, it's easier to get out if you miss.

Advice: Don't raise the limpers. Just limp along and play the nuts only.

There is some good advice in this thread, Ranka and Rapid are right on target.

The higher you play, the more important these strategies are. At your lower limits, be aware of the calling stations and avoid them w/ your marginal hands.

As stated above and just to reiterate it, "Look at who's limping in" and determine whether or not it is profitable to iso against them, and also "Look at the blinds" and determine if they'll get out of the way when you're isoing. The fold to Cbet stat is huge when you're using this strategy.

Ranka, I've never had the problem of folding sets, sry.
LL79

For me, whether to limp, raise, or fold with my marginal hands at NL25 depens on my reads for the limpers in front of me. If they're calling stations my tendency is to limp with my speculative hands and raise only my big hands. Don't forget your basic hand principles. Suited connectors and small pairs have always been and always will be money in multiway limped pots. No need to raise with them against the fish as you won't be pushing the fish off of top pair anyway. When you hit your sets, straights, and flushes, though, your profits will be disporportionately larger when you hit the nuts.

OTOH if the limpers are TAG's, I generally assume that an EP limp means a small PP, that they're likely to cf any flop that doesn't spank them, and any postflop resistance likely speaks to a successful set mining excursion, meaning I need to GTFO immediately. Here the raise/cbet line tends to show greater profits.

If I'm playing 4 or fewer tables I also keep track of who's yet to act behind me. If there are any LAGs or maniacs, I'm more likely to raise to avoid having to limp/fold or make an uncomfortable limp/call.

If the limpers on my right are calling stations and the players yet to act are aggressive preflop, folding my speculative hands becomes more of an option as there's no great way to maximize profits in those situations.

Criminy. Their limpers. You don't need 17 pages of theory. Club them like seals. Think of the button as a big heavy thing that you can tie to a stick. Wade through them with said stick and make them regret having limped. Then, make a coat. And maybe some mittens. A nice hat would be good, too.

level?

Actually, it's more true than I'd like to admit vs. the average NL50 player who won't release TP or even middle pair to a "very" active (like a 18/15 or 14/10 at these levels) player.

I absolutely love punishing the set-miners (the 10/3 or 14/4 types) who are so on autopilot it is funny. Beyond that, I see my c-bets called too often if I try and punish too light from LP against the usual crop of players.

this is my main reasoning for this thread. I was getting into situations like this and it just seemed spewy to me. I got a lot of good input on this thanks for all the replies.

Op just move down 2 limits and play a lot of pots in position. Try to play at least one hand per orbit in late position (last 3 seats) and really get used to getting aggro there. Besides getting used to playing a bit looser u will also get a lot more postflop experience which will help ur hand reading skills and help u win more/ lose less in marginal situations.