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Micro Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to .25/.50 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 07-23-2009, 01:41 PM   #1
funkyj
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Question Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Have you played 30k or more hands at a single level (10NL, 5NL, 2NL) of no limit holdem on Full Tilt or PokerStars? If yes, I would like you to post the following data for each level:
  • how many hands played at the level
  • rake actually paid at the level
  • MGR for hands played at the level
  • (optional) rakeback you were actually awarded (in the absence of this we can assume FT players got 27% of their MGR).
  • (optional) other benefits you may have accrued.

I'm mostly interested in the first 3 items as I'm trying to analyze the impact of how the rake granularity affect the amount of rake actually collected. My hypothesis is that for stakes like 5NL and 2NL, PokerStars players pay a signficantly lower rake that Full Tilt players. I have data for 5NL at PokerStars but no data for Full Tilt.
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Old 07-23-2009, 05:15 PM   #2
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

I thought it was a fact that PS has a lower rake than FT? wouldn't that info about rake structure be available on their respective websites?
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Old 07-23-2009, 05:23 PM   #3
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Hey did you know there was a FAQ sticky at the top of the fourm?
Neither did I!!!

Its true!

Here is the microstakes rake primer.

at the end Vimes updated the new rake structure with the changes in Feb 09.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...9-post2083939/
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:13 PM   #4
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyG-SD View Post
Hey did you know there was a FAQ sticky at the top of the fourm?
Neither did I!!!

Its true!

Here is the microstakes rake primer.

at the end Vimes updated the new rake structure with the changes in Feb 09.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...9-post2083939/
I have the penultimate post (back in Feb) in that thread ...

I'm asking for actual rake data, not rake structures. I know what the structure is. I have an idea how the differences in structure should affect the data but I want to see actual data to confirm.

The data shows us the reality of what is happening. How big or small is the impact of the 99 cent effect?

We can argue theory all month long or we can simply collect real world data and see what is going on. If you have data for 10NL and below, please post it.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:15 PM   #5
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.

In practice there is a big difference between theory and practice.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:20 PM   #6
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

10nl
45,035 hands
$324.26 rake

Dunno how to get MGR and stuff since I use HEM.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:31 PM   #7
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by yz10andy View Post
10nl
45,035 hands
$324.26 rake

Dunno how to get MGR and stuff since I use HEM.
Thanks yz10andy!
Which site were these hands played at? Any HEM user want to explain how to distinguish "rake paid" from "MGR"?
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:33 PM   #8
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

I thought rake paid was the rake you paid in ONLY the hands you won.
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:46 PM   #9
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

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Originally Posted by CWsports View Post
I thought rake paid was the rake you paid in ONLY the hands you won.
that is what it means in PT3. Example, if Joe_L_User plays 10k hands of 9 handed 50NLHE and never wins a pot then his PT3 "rake paid" stat would show $0.00 but his MGR would be 1/9 of the rake paid by the table while he was dealt in.

Not being a HEM user I don't know how to find either of these stats in HEM or which is which. (i.e. does HEM call either of these by different names?)

We need MGR to calculate rakeback (in the case of Full Tilt). We need "rake paid" because it is important to figure out how much rake is actually costing you.

At Full Tilt, your effective rake is:

rake-paid - MGR * .27


Since MGR is nearly always a bit different than rake-paid (usually a bit bigger for TAGs) it is important for this survey to collect both.

If MGR is significantly higher than the rake you actually paid then you are, in reality getting more than the 27% rake back advertised. Unrealistic example: If you actually paid $50 in rake but your MGR was $100 then you get $27 rakeback and your effective rake is a mere $23! (imaginary hero does an imaginary fist pump when he sees these stats in his imaginary DB).

BTW, this is one of many reasons to hate short stackers or the sites for using a dealt rake system. DUCY? (LOL, I can't believe I said "Dee yew see why").
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:48 PM   #10
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

I use PT3 myself some I'm not sure as well.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:00 PM   #11
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

i have 28,993 hands @ 10NLFR on stars; close enough? PT3 says rake = $220.65, MGR = $213.56, not that i really understand what any of that means; obv i am teh suxorz at google today

when i hover the cursor over both terms in PT3, 'rake' says 'total rake paid' and 'MGR' says 'monthly gross rake'; since the values are pretty close, i am confused, how can the rake i've paid over 7 months be close to my monthly WhateverTheF...ItWas?
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:07 PM   #12
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyhai View Post
i have 28,993 hands @ 10NLFR on stars; close enough? PT3 says rake = $220.65, MGR = $213.56, not that i really understand what any of that means; obv i am teh suxorz at google today

when i hover the cursor over both terms in PT3, 'rake' says 'total rake paid' and 'MGR' says 'monthly gross rake'; since the values are pretty close, i am confused, how can the rake i've paid over 7 months be close to my monthly WhateverTheF...ItWas?
Rake Paid is the total rake ONLY for hands you won so let's say you played 30k hands and you won 3000 of those hands. Then let's say the average rake was 7 cents per hand. Rake Paid would be $210.

MGR takes into account all hands. Let's say you play 30k hands and the average rake is 7 cents. Total rake would be $2100. Then let's say there was an average of 8.3 players per hand. MGR would be 2100/8.3 = $253

There's also MGR based on dealt hands and contributed hands but I won't get into that.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:26 PM   #13
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyhai View Post
i have 28,993 hands @ 10NLFR on stars; close enough? PT3 says rake = $220.65, MGR = $213.56, not that i really understand what any of that means; obv i am teh suxorz at google today

when i hover the cursor over both terms in PT3, 'rake' says 'total rake paid' and 'MGR' says 'monthly gross rake'; since the values are pretty close, i am confused, how can the rake i've paid over 7 months be close to my monthly WhateverTheF...ItWas?
Thanks Andy! Your sample is fine.

TANGENT: following up on CWSports' comment, MGR is "dealt rake". I.e. even if you fold EVERY SINGLE HAND (i.e. VPIP 0%) you get just as much MGR as a maniac who has a VPIP and WTSD of 100%.

You can ignore "contributed rake" if you are not a rake nerd as none of the big sites use this system.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:49 PM   #14
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Here is rake paid data I collected from my own DB a while back and posted to another thread. All hands played at PokerStars
  • 50NL: $1397 / 42122 hands ==> .0331/hand, 6.6bb/100
  • 25NL: $651 / 35527 hands ==> $.0183/hand, 7.3bb/100
  • 5NL: $164 / 39244 ==> $.0041/hand, 8.3bb/100

I'll add MGR figures later.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:51 PM   #15
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

<delete this post please>
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #16
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
Thanks yz10andy!
Which site were these hands played at? Any HEM user want to explain how to distinguish "rake paid" from "MGR"?
Pokerstars


I also have like 15k hands or so at 2nl if you're interested in that.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:58 PM   #17
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyhai View Post
i am confused, how can the rake i've paid over 7 months be close to my monthly WhateverTheF...ItWas?
Because "monthly" does not mean "monthly". For better or worse, we seem to be stuck with the term "MGR" to mean "dealt rake". Forget that acronyms are suppose to mean something (self contained underwater breathing apparatus anyone?) and just believe us when we say "MGR" means "rake collected at the table, credit for which is evenly shared among all players dealt into the hand".
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:59 PM   #18
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by yz10andy View Post
Pokerstars


I also have like 15k hands or so at 2nl if you're interested in that.
please share. We seem to have a dearth of data at 2NL.
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:24 PM   #19
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
please share. We seem to have a dearth of data at 2NL.
Where's that chip-star guy when you need him hehe?

Anyways

2nl
15157 hands
$26.90
Pokerstars

Might as well just give 25nl while I'm at it.
54136 hands
$929.97
Stars
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:08 PM   #20
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Asked at MGR in HEM here. Awaiting replies ...
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:12 PM   #21
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

2NL FullTilt": 43,851 hands Rake 89.64 MGR 115.18
2NL Stars: 6185 hands Rake 7.65 MGR 8.53
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:24 PM   #22
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by grouchie View Post
2NL FullTilt": 43,851 hands Rake 89.64 MGR 115.18
2NL Stars: 6185 hands Rake 7.65 MGR 8.53
Great.

For Full Tilt we have:
  • rake paid: $89.64 ==> 4482bb ==> 10.2bb/100 hands
  • rakeback: $115.18 * 27% ==> $31.09
  • effective rake: $89.64 - 31.09 ==> $58.55 ==> 2927.5bb ==> 6.6bb/100 hands

For PokerStars (small sample) we have:
  • rake paid: $7.65 ==> 382.5bb ==> 6.2bb/100 hands
  • FPPs earned: ??? (probably negligible)
  • effective rake: 6.2bb/100 hands

Hmmm, PokerStars is better but the sample there is mighty small. I expected PokerStars to be quite a bit better because the 99 cent effect. Well, with these numbers, PokerStars currently looks a little better at 2NL if the Full Tilt player has rakeback and far better if Full Tilt player does not have rakeback.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:42 PM   #23
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

Quote:
Originally Posted by yz10andy View Post
Where's that chip-star guy when you need him hehe?
BBV imo:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip-star View Post
[IMG][/IMG]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip-star View Post
Rake $625, MGR $1198.

With all the reload bonuses i've pretty muxh getten back the $625.

Not really that many fpps, 1 in 250 or so probably between 2.5-3k vpps and the same amount of fpps as it was pretty much impossible for me to get silverstar.

Want to thank scotty for allowing me the $64 april fools bonus even tho i was 200vpps short of making silverstar.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:48 PM   #24
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

10NL on Stars:

32229 Hands, $213.44 Rake
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:48 PM   #25
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Re: Survey: Looking for PS, FT rake data at 10NL and below

stars 10NL FR
25,215 hands
$150.25 rake
$172.13 MGR
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