I thought he had top pair on the flop (perhaps Ace of spades) and the river bet looked like he was crying for a call. Do we call or fold? Took me a while to take my decision here...
Also, would it be a good idea to bet the turn in that spot?
when he calls your bet on flop he could have ace/jack/flush draw/mid pp - fold to flop cbet/turn cbet is useful in determining what he is continuing with
Last edited by riverman2k; 07-13-2012 at 08:34 AM.
when he calls your bet on flop he could have ace/jack/flush draw/mid pp - fold to flop cbet/turn cbet is useful in determining what he is continuing with
After 23 hand, villain probably isn't going to have a reliable sample for fold to flopcbet/turn cbet. I check behind on the turn as there's more aces in his range than jacks and i'm happy to just get it to showdown.
River is tough imo given villain type and the way the hand played out. It's a good spot for him to bluff though as you haven't repped anything strong. Think i just let it go though.
After 23 hand, villain probably isn't going to have a reliable sample for fold to flopcbet/turn cbet. I check behind on the turn as there's more aces in his range than jacks and i'm happy to just get it to showdown.
River is tough imo given villain type and the way the hand played out. It's a good spot for him to bluff though as you haven't repped anything strong. Think i just let it go though.
missed that fair point. Check turn is good cos you keep stubborn mid pp pairs in and maybe 2nd pair type hands, unfortunately spade came and he hasn't checked it - he played very passively to that point and 50% of pot seems like value bet I'd fold
missed that fair point. Check turn is good cos you keep stubborn mid pp pairs in and maybe 2nd pair type hands, unfortunately spade came and he hasn't checked it - he played very passively to that point and 50% of pot seems like value bet I'd fold
The problem with these spots is a 4-flush on the board is a good bluffing spot, so with the third-nut flush might it be worth a crying call for only half-pot and then taking a note with what hand he did it with.
Perhaps he's just half-potting a ten-high flush and hoping for a crying call from a lower flush or perhaps a curiosity look-up if you don't believe him. Our hand doesn't have to be good that often to make a profitable call, and even if it is slightly -EV it could be worth it for the information to see if he bluffs spots like these.
It's a tough position to be in, I think the King-high flush is an automatic call.
for value and for the collection of dead money. he can still call with worse.
as played I'm snapping this river. he's a half stack who looks to be bad and play to many hands, albeit over a small sample. this alone is enough for me to assume he can be FOS in this spot and/or towning himself.
Not sure i like cbetting. He is mostly going to fold PPs, and continuing with Ax and fds, Ax much more likely than Jx when they call pre. Maybe broadways with a gs. Plus getting raised by a fd and having to fold sucks. It is not a clear vbet, mostly you are not going to dub ott for value again on a blank, right? Reason why hero checks ott and folds otr here is bc once he gets called otf and doesnt feel comfortable with a SDV hand. He just autocbetted this flop.
Without other reads, check back otf, ott call or bet yourself imo.Revaluate otr.
He's probably pretty terrible at this game if he's half stacked, playing what are shaping up to be terrible number and flatting pot sized opens out of the blinds. Ax hands are such a small portion of his range for defending in this spot. Also your assumption that he will be folding out even under pairs to the Jack are off imo. Fish are fish and make a ton of fundamental mistakes. If he has hands as bad as 23 or 45 I still expect to get action to a flop cbet until proven otherwise.
I'm not saying your line is terrible or anything. If after building up a larger sample we start to find out more specifics about his game then we can make the proper adjustments, one of which could be checking back flop and calling good run outs as the default line but as of now, after ~30 of him shaping up to be a fish I am happy to use bet flop for value as my default. It's not like this is exactly a way ahead or way behind spot. He can have a bunch of hands that we're ahead of that actually have pretty decent equity against us and we don't want to freeroll.
strongly disagree, couchpotato. the amount of regs who are going to be able to recognize good bluffing spots in these situations, at these stakes is very very small. fish on the other hand just click buttons, especially when they have wide ranges and aren't really sure what to do.
its funny, I recently started checking out these threads in microFR more often and it appears a lot of people have no clue where the vast majority of their win rates (loss rates?) come from. its not dick swinging making super thin call downs vs solid regs and getting into 3bet wars. its abusing the retards that play way too many hands and don't have clue how to act appropriately post flop.
He's probably pretty terrible at this game if he's half stacked, playing what are shaping up to be terrible number and flatting pot sized opens out of the blinds. Ax hands are such a small portion of his range for defending in this spot. Also your assumption that he will be folding out even under pairs to the Jack are off imo. Fish are fish and make a ton of fundamental mistakes. If he has hands as bad as 23 or 45 I still expect to get action to a flop cbet until proven otherwise.
I'm not saying your line is terrible or anything. If after building up a larger sample we start to find out more specifics about his game then we can make the proper adjustments, one of which could be checking back flop and calling good run outs as the default line but as of now, after ~30 of him shaping up to be a fish I am happy to use bet flop for value as my default. It's not like this is exactly a way ahead or way behind spot. He can have a bunch of hands that we're ahead of that actually have pretty decent equity against us and we don't want to freeroll.
he might be a fish (can't really say much about him after 23 hands really, but that he is half stacked and probably not a nit) but it is pretty optimistic to think we can get called by 22-TT here. also those hands are not calling more than 1 street and it is more probable to widen his calling range if we check flop and bet turn (not really afraid of checking vs. his 2 outers) , 23 prolly not in his range (sample size is small, but he can has a fold btn preflop). same for 45, mayybe suited. by checking we also can induce a turn bluff some of the times. again, what is your plan vs. a raise otf (I guess you are bf'ing right?). or what is your plan on a blank turn? i think the most profitable line here is x/b (or call)/x (or fold if we called ott) UI.
oh he's a fish. its 10nl, everyone's a fish relatively speaking, just a matter of if he's a complete mouth breather or just a bad half stacking reg (which is still a very bad player with a mountain of leaks).
it's not optimistic at all to think 22-TT are calling at least one street, I see it every day from players of this ilk and to say you can only get one street from these guys is not even close to accurate. half pot flop, quarter pot turn, less than quarter pot river on good run outs is getting called a fair amount in these spots by bad players with 77+. a lot of people have this misconception that a bet has to be between 1/2 and 3/4 pot. I make tons of small bets on rivers every session I play. would you rather bet 5bb's into a 30bb pot and get called 75% of the time or bet 20bb's and only get called 10% of the time?
my default plan for the hand is to bet flop ~1/2 pot giving no immediate odds to any real draws 12 outs or less while still allowing him to call with worse than top pair. evaluate the timing of his flop call and turn check, if he raises flop its a very easy fold with no history (with more history it might be a bet call flop or a check back flop). sometimes depending on the turn I will maybe bet small again (against terribad fish with super wide ranges) or bet big (against regs who I think I can barrel off top pair, second pair type hands), but the majority of the time I'll be checking back and expecting him to maybe bet his Ax hands on certain run outs then weighing that vs the amount of possible missed draws or not expecting him to bet his Ax and then it's just a question of does he have a set+ and should I call. its really not that big of a guessing game when you're not afraid to be put in semi difficult situations. just make the right play and not be results oriented.
in this hand specifically I like checking back the turn because we really don't give a ton of equity away to anything we're still ahead of now because we always have the spade draw to fall back on. then like I said in my first post in the thread I'm snapping up this river and expecting to be good way over the ~30% of the time I have to be right to make the call +ev.
I guess where my thinking differs is that getting to showdown or controlling the size of the pot is really not that important to me in this spot. the hand is pretty easy to play so I'm not worried about making any big mistakes and betting the flop as a default, I feel, offers me the best lines for later in the hand vs the vast majority of players and then a check back flop line is more to induce vs guys I know get out of line vs signs of weakness.
Two Plus Two
Q
Linear Mode
