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Old 06-18-2012, 04:44 AM   #1
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NL2: flop overpair vs shove

Villain is 14/4/2.7 over 99 hands



    Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    UTG: $1.67 (83.5 bb)
    MP: $5.71 (285.5 bb)
    CO: $2 (100 bb)
    BTN: $4.17 (208.5 bb)
    Hero (SB): $2.21 (110.5 bb)
    BB: $2 (100 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with Q Q
    UTG raises to $0.04, MP calls $0.04, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.18, BB folds, UTG calls $0.14, MP folds

    Flop: ($0.42) T 3 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.30, UTG raises to $1.49 and is all-in, Hero ???

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    Old 06-18-2012, 04:58 AM   #2
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Why did you 3bet pre?

    On the flop you beat Jacks. Time to flip a coin?
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    Old 06-18-2012, 05:15 AM   #3
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    call no full stacked, can do it with wrose.
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    Old 06-18-2012, 06:23 AM   #4
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    In my view you should have 3-betted bigger.. beeing nl2 and all that... I guess somewhere around 0.30c would do. If called/4-betted by utg, who obviously is making a play, opening 2x in utg... you will know why that is and be able to check/fold flop without problems, saving yourself some value along the way... there is no way on this earth or another that a nl2 player will notice you doing that and exploit you.
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    Old 06-18-2012, 08:08 AM   #5
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Myher View Post
    In my view you should have 3-betted bigger.. beeing nl2 and all that... I guess somewhere around 0.30c would do. If called/4-betted by utg, who obviously is making a play, opening 2x in utg... you will know why that is and be able to check/fold flop without problems, saving yourself some value along the way... there is no way on this earth or another that a nl2 player will notice you doing that and exploit you.
    Bigger 3bet pre? Whys that? To ensure he only continues with hands that crush you? You do realise he is only raising 4% of hands?

    3bet size is fine imo - if you are going to 3bet at all.
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    Old 06-18-2012, 08:29 AM   #6
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PeoplesElbow View Post
    call no full stacked, can do it with wrose.
    I agree with this b/c he's not full stacked, but I disagree b/c his stats are 14/4 so far.

    I would have flatted preflop, I'm folding now. We beat 6 combos of JJ, lose to 12 combos of KK and 3 of TT. Pot odds say we have to be good 35% of the time, these combos leave us good about 29%. Find me enough bluff/semibluff combos to push this above 35 and we can call (AcKc, maybe AcQc, but I still don't think that gets us there).
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    Old 06-18-2012, 08:45 AM   #7
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Harlow_Hammer View Post
    Bigger 3bet pre? Whys that? To ensure he only continues with hands that crush you? You do realise he is only raising 4% of hands?

    3bet size is fine imo - if you are going to 3bet at all.
    He is also playing oop and giving him good odds to call pre. I suggested to raise bigger because utg opened for 2x which is a tricky move, and we don't want to give 3 streets of value to AA or KK... do we? also if he makes it 0.30 and gets called he is almost sure utg has a monster and will shut down without a flopped set, which will save him the initial 0.18 which he raised pre(because he made in this example a c-bet of 0.30). Instead of putting 24bb in pot, cluless of what that guy has, is it not better to put 15bb, and get info about villain in the same time?
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    Old 06-18-2012, 08:58 AM   #8
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Myher View Post
    He is also playing oop and giving him good odds to call pre. I suggested to raise bigger because utg opened for 2x which is a tricky move, and we don't want to give 3 streets of value to AA or KK... do we? also if he makes it 0.30 and gets called he is almost sure utg has a monster and will shut down without a flopped set, which will save him the initial 0.18 which he raised pre(because he made in this example a c-bet of 0.30). Instead of putting 24bb in pot, cluless of what that guy has, is it not better to put 15bb, and get info about villain in the same time?
    So you want to put 15BB in preflop - then fold to a 4bet? - with QQ? Why turn it into a bluff.

    How about this ... we know he is a nit - he is only raising 4% (TOTAL, possibly a lot less UTG), which is AQ+ 99+ and QQ's are not doing great against this range. So call the PF raise for 2BB, then call his flop bet (even if its a pot size bet its only 8BB), which gives us a LOT more information on him as well as the chance to actually hit our 2 outer if he does have us beat.

    This means we can safely fold to a turn barrell and have only put in 10BB, which is still 5BB better off than the unnecessarily massive 3bet pre. Don't you think that is better than turning QQ into a bluff? He is a NIT. He is not going to bet 3 streets with AQo when he has missed.

    Last edited by Harlow_Hammer; 06-18-2012 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Hero has QQ, not JJ
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    Old 06-19-2012, 02:11 AM   #9
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Harlow_Hammer View Post
    So you want to put 15BB in preflop - then fold to a 4bet? - with QQ? Why turn it into a bluff.

    How about this ... we know he is a nit - he is only raising 4% (TOTAL, possibly a lot less UTG), which is AQ+ 99+ and QQ's are not doing great against this range. So call the PF raise for 2BB, then call his flop bet (even if its a pot size bet its only 8BB), which gives us a LOT more information on him as well as the chance to actually hit our 2 outer if he does have us beat.

    This means we can safely fold to a turn barrell and have only put in 10BB, which is still 5BB better off than the unnecessarily massive 3bet pre. Don't you think that is better than turning QQ into a bluff? He is a NIT. He is not going to bet 3 streets with AQo when he has missed.
    is 14/4 a nit?
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    Old 06-19-2012, 03:17 AM   #10
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    also, do you call QQ to 4-bet oop o a regular basys?
    second: you are 3-way if you just call preflop, and yes, you are oop
    third: If he is raising only 4% total, you can be sure that is not his utg range, rather somewhere below 2%
    fourth: How is c-betting a read?
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    Old 06-19-2012, 03:22 AM   #11
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Myher View Post
    third: If he is raising only 4% total, you can be sure that is not his utg range, rather somewhere below 2%
    This probably isnt true of someone playing 14/4, they wont be positionally aware and will be playing hands at face value so their 4% PFR is probably about the same from every position.
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    Old 06-19-2012, 07:33 AM   #12
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Myher View Post
    is 14/4 a nit?
    14/4 is genuinely nitty. A proper nit has a PFR < 6 and a VPIP at least double his PFR (but less than 15).

    9/7 - 14/11 types are commonly called nits, but I'd call them aggronits or nitty TAGs. These players have more in common with TAGs than nits because they are usually positionally aware and play aggressively preflop.
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    Old 06-19-2012, 12:13 PM   #13
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    Re: NL2: flop overpair vs shove

    Pre is fine imo. Random 80bb nit at NL2 with only 100 hands on him. Not enough information to say for sure that he isn't just doing something dumb here (stack size gives evidence that this might be the case). We have the 3rd best hand possible, I'm not gonna flat a miniraise OOP with it. Raising for value. Versus a 14/4 reg with these stats, ok there is a case for just calling preflop to (lol) setmine.

    I am calling the flop although not fist pumping by any means for similar reasons as stated above.
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