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Old 02-06-2010, 07:23 AM   #1
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Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

Hero has a very nitty image only played 4 hands in the last 2 hours.

Hero (CO): $300
BB: $250
UTG: $250
BTN: $300

Pre-Flop: Hero is dealt AK
UTG calls, 2 players folds, 2 players call, Hero pops it to $20, BTN calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

I put UTG on a pair he is a somewhat decent player but he is starting to go on tilt and may open his calling range here with a hand like KT or AX rag sooted. BTN and BB are loose passive, BB likes to check big hands.

Flop: $80
KT9

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $65 BTN calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: 9
BB checks, Hero bets $100, BTN moves all in, BB cals, Hero?????

Am I ever good with 2 loose passive players going all in? Does the size of the pot make this an insta call? Should I pay them off?
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:30 AM   #2
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

So basically you put in 2/3 of your stack. Yes you put in your 1/3.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:34 AM   #3
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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Originally Posted by HelpWanted0 View Post
So basically you put in 2/3 of your stack. Yes you put in your 1/3.
Are you saying I could check/fold this turn? Or bet smaller and then fold?

Why waste another $100 if BTN and BB between them will have a better hand a lot of the times here?
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:20 PM   #4
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

When you bet the $100 on the turn, you committed yourself to the pot. You're getting ~7-1 on your money, so even if you're 86% sure you're beat you need to call. You're ahead of a smaller A, and if KT is in the hand you just pulled ahead. KhXh, XsTs, may have decided to gambol (I've seen worse raises/calls).

It's unlikely, but there is probably a 14% chance you're still ahead. Add to that the 4% chance you hit an ace on the river and you're priced in.

In fact, into a $275 pot, with that drawy board your turn bet should have been all in, imo, unless you picked up a read you were beat, then you should have c/folded.
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Old 02-06-2010, 04:15 PM   #5
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

By the way, after saying all of that. If you have really good reads and you're very sure one of your opponents would never get his money in without a 9 or a boat here - you need to be better than 90% sure - then yeah, just save your last $115. I think live, this degree of confidence is possible because there are so many uberpassive players who won't raise all in without the nuts or close to it. It pays to look for and identify these ubernits as soon as possible. Also, you can often get a pretty good read on how nervous/calm they are. But in general, you shouldn't be betting this turn unless you're ready to stack off, imo.

BTW, in my last post I meant 4% chance you hit the K on the river, ldo.

Last edited by FoldnDark; 02-06-2010 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 04:26 PM   #6
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

You're never winning here on the turn.
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Old 02-06-2010, 04:43 PM   #7
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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You're never winning here on the turn.
Never is strong. Most of the time you're behind, agreed. But I've seen maniacs pick up a flush draw with AsTs, or KhQh for example, and shove here. And I've seen stations call with AQ or KT. It happens more often than you might imagine in super loose games, and if your folding getting 7-1 here with these guys it's pretty bad.

These types of situation are not uncommon in loose games, and I think it's good to discuss how to play them. What does everyone think is the best action on the turn? Check, shove, or small bet and consider folding? I think it is very read dependant, so I'm going with read dependent shove or check/fold > b/c > b/f
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:26 PM   #8
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

I would of called if BB had of folded, I just mucked on the turn I was pretty sure I was behind to BTN's raising range and BB having a monseter draw calling range.

I have been in the same kind of spots were both players were on draws (and they only really check-call on draws) and bet with stronger hands and never really TPTK hands unless its an overpair to the board. You see I dont want to check and miss value from a draw that both players might be on given the flop action/texture, so lets say I check the turn they wont bet anything like KX, straight or flush draw and only really bet trips are better and now the river is a Jack, Queen, heart, Ten or some stupid runner runner flush stuff I cant really bet river and end up checking and folding to any decent bet.
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:28 PM   #9
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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Never is strong. Most of the time you're behind, agreed. But I've seen maniacs pick up a flush draw with AsTs, or KhQh for example, and shove here. And I've seen stations call with AQ or KT. It happens more often than you might imagine in super loose games, and if your folding getting 7-1 here with these guys it's pretty bad.

These types of situation are not uncommon in loose games, and I think it's good to discuss how to play them. What does everyone think is the best action on the turn? Check, shove, or small bet and consider folding? I think it is very read dependant, so I'm going with read dependent shove or check/fold > b/c > b/f
It is not out of the question to say that you're behind here 80-90% of the time, with virtually no outs those times. The times you are ahead, if it is in front of AsTs or KhQh, you're going to get sucked out on a reasonable percentage of the time, so your equity there is not great.

Rarely will someone be playing for stacks here in multiway pot, deep, without a huge holding, after OP has announced he really likes his hand.

Unless people in this hand are utterly horrendous, no one ever has AQ, and we are behind KT (I think you mentioned this because you saw the board paired and thought counterfeit, but AK still has worse two pair here)
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:09 PM   #10
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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It is not out of the question to say that you're behind here 80-90% of the time, with virtually no outs those times. The times you are ahead, if it is in front of AsTs or KhQh, you're going to get sucked out on a reasonable percentage of the time, so your equity there is not great.

Rarely will someone be playing for stacks here in multiway pot, deep, without a huge holding, after OP has announced he really likes his hand.

Unless people in this hand are utterly horrendous, no one ever has AQ, and we are behind KT (I think you mentioned this because you saw the board paired and thought counterfeit, but AK still has worse two pair here)
You're right about the KT, I don't know why I originally read OP pairing his A on this hand... so that takes out some possible hands we beat. I don't think we should assume these players aren't utterly horrendous - there are just so many of them playing 1-2 live, right?

But I also just noticed OP has them both labeled loose passive, so I think it is very possible to be over 90% sure we're beat, since passive players are rarely shoving here without at least a 9. Though, dammit, I've seen crazier things....

So lets say we can fold here getting ~7-1. Yuck, does this make c/folding the turn a better play? I don't see how betting the turn planning to fold to a shove is a good idea.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:16 PM   #11
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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So lets say we can fold here getting ~7-1. Yuck, does this make c/folding the turn a better play? I don't see how betting the turn planning to fold to a shove is a good idea.
Your right bet/folding sucks here but 75% of the time they just call with worse they will not always have a better hand here most of the time its a drawing hand that will call a bet. Thats my reason for betting.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:21 PM   #12
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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When you bet the $100 on the turn, you committed yourself to the pot. You're getting ~7-1 on your money, so even if you're 86% sure you're beat you need to call.
But if youre certain you're beat you can fold... which is why OP asks if he is _ever_ good here. There are definitely times when you can be sure enough youre no good to fold with 7-1. This just isnt one of them. IMO -- just those occassions when you're up against two flush draws or a worse king and a FD give you the overlay you need to call here. Im not saying i think youre good (you usually arent)... just that youre good often enough so that you have to put those last 100 chips in.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:28 PM   #13
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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But I also just noticed OP has them both labeled loose passive, so I think it is very possible to be over 90% sure we're beat, since passive players are rarely shoving here without at least a 9. Though, dammit, I've seen crazier things....
If the raise was a bit larger, i would be inclined to agree with you -- but with a weak made hand, or a lot of draws, even a chronically LP player without much poker knowledge realizes that "Hmm... you know, i have $200 in front of me, and this dude just bet $100... i think my hand is good, but it seems like all the money is getting in anyway so i might as well just put the full two hundred in instead of calling $100 now and $100 on the river."

If he had a few more chips -- like even 40 or 50 bucks... like if his raise was $160 on top, id be inching toward agreeing with you here...
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:31 PM   #14
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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So lets say we can fold here getting ~7-1. Yuck, does this make c/folding the turn a better play? I don't see how betting the turn planning to fold to a shove is a good idea.
definitely not.... turn is a clear bet -- were going to get called by Kings and sometimes by tens. c/f the turn only appears like a better play if we assume in advance that theyre going to shove over our turn bet. Most of the time they just call or fold here.

If we want to take a conservative line, we can ampdown our bet size a little... make it like 70 so we have some room to consider a fold if were beat but still make the pot large enough to bet the rest of our stack on the river if were not.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:33 PM   #15
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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Your right bet/folding sucks here but 75% of the time they just call with worse they will not always have a better hand here most of the time its a drawing hand that will call a bet. Thats my reason for betting.
So are you folding the river if a draw hits or any card that may have given them 2pair or trips?

And I don't know if you're giving draws a bad price. Your $100 bet creates a $275 pot, giving them almost 3-1 plus implied odds. Many draws are getting a decent price to call, especially once the first guy does. Wouldn't a bigger bet make more sense? That would, of course, price you into calling a shove even more than 7-1, so if you're betting you might as well shove.

I understand how it is live, a black chip is a big bet regardless of the pot, and a lot of players haven't kept track of the size of the pot anyway, so we can use this info in making our decisions. So maybe a $100 bet/fold is optimal, but I don't know. Seems to me like we should either be c/folding or shoving depending on our reads here.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:40 PM   #16
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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definitely not.... turn is a clear bet -- were going to get called by Kings and sometimes by tens. c/f the turn only appears like a better play if we assume in advance that theyre going to shove over our turn bet. Most of the time they just call or fold here.

If we want to take a conservative line, we can ampdown our bet size a little... make it like 70 so we have some room to consider a fold if were beat but still make the pot large enough to bet the rest of our stack on the river if were not.
This is interesting, maybe that makes it easier to fold to a shove, while also getting value from worse hands. But it also really makes drawing correct and also opens you up to bluffs since it's such a weak bet (though that probably doesn't apply with passive opponents).
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:44 PM   #17
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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This is interesting, maybe that makes it easier to fold to a shove, while also getting value from worse hands. But it also really makes drawing correct and also opens you up to bluffs since it's such a weak bet (though that probably doesn't apply with passive opponents).
this... if you bet like 70 there, and a typical LP 1-2 player pushes for like 150 more youre beat often enough to fold.... honestly, my bet sizing would have been smaller through-out the hand.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:51 PM   #18
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

The small size bet just gives so many hands great odds to call, getting ~5/1 on their call plus implied odds. You practically deserve to get sucked out on. What do you do on the river? C/fold to a scare card? Shove a blank? C/call a blank? What is a blank here anyway?
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:47 PM   #19
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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The small size bet just gives so many hands great odds to call, getting ~5/1 on their call plus implied odds. You practically deserve to get sucked out on. What do you do on the river? C/fold to a scare card? Shove a blank? C/call a blank? What is a blank here anyway?
You appear to be fixated with giving your opponents incorrect odds to draw. You realize you still make a profit on the bet if your opponents call you and are getting correct odds to do so, right?(especially 3 ways)

Giving your opponents correct odds to draw in a large pot is only a huge mistake if they will fold when presented with incorrect odds.
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:33 PM   #20
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

Your betsizing throughout the hand is bad if you weren't trying to get all the chips in the middle. No way you can fold after betting 100 ott but I'm not sure that you're ahead.

Bet smaller on the flop and the turn, maybe bet smaller pre as well.
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:40 PM   #21
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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maybe bet smaller pre as well.
maybe 10X is a bit of a big raise? much smaller pre.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:35 PM   #22
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

Wouldn't a check on the turn help define the hand ranges of the opponents better? After the flop, the pot is now larger than the stacks of all three players. So I think each of them have to be thinking that any more bets mean that all the money is going in.

Only the Button has better position. If it is checked to him, I think he probably checks his marginal hands (like TP, JJ, AT, etc.) and his draws. If the Button bets strong and the other player calls, I think OP can feel pretty confident he's beat most of the time and fold. If the Button bets and the other player folds, then I think OP's action is read dependent on the Button's style of play.

I think if OP is going to bet the turn, the most reasonable bet is all-in given the size of the pot.

I know that checking may give free cards to the other players on a draw heavy board. But I don't see a $100 bet into a $275 pot and approximately $200 effective stacks as accomplishing much. I think it commits you to the rest of your chips with only a marginally strong hand against this board. If I really thought I was ahead, I'd want to get all my chips in now (hence the logic behind pushing), and if I thought there was a reasonable chance I was behind, I'd be looking for a way to get to showdown without committing the rest of my chips.
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:13 PM   #23
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

I think pf is fine. But once you get 3 callers and see that flop I wouldn't want to commit my stack. I'd check the flop and see what happens. I know that this gives a free card but I think pot control is more important than protection and you may already be way behind.There's also many bad turn cards, any heart, Q,J,T,9,8,7,6 pretty much suck. When you make that flop bet your building an all in pot. If thats not what you want , don't make it.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:28 PM   #24
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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maybe 10X is a bit of a big raise? much smaller pre.
I make a standard bet I get 4+ or more callers so the pot is still roughly the same size but now only with more players in the pot with me. Sure I can and have done this in the past but I found my game just super passive and like Foldndark said if I do bet, players who are on draws are getting good odds to call and it makes it really tough on how the rest of the hand plays out and sometimes I make incorrect folds because I see a lot of others calling but all I have is TPTK or I check turn and faced with a smallish bet but all I have is an overpair or TPTK up against 2 other callers and its like I have only have to be good here 30% etc. to show profit.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:32 PM   #25
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Re: Live $1/2: TPTK, MW draw heavy board bet turn and get it in?

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I think pf is fine. But once you get 3 callers and see that flop I wouldn't want to commit my stack. I'd check the flop and see what happens. I know that this gives a free card but I think pot control is more important than protection and you may already be way behind.There's also many bad turn cards, any heart, Q,J,T,9,8,7,6 pretty much suck. When you make that flop bet your building an all in pot. If thats not what you want , don't make it.
Yeah I thought about checking the flop and I suppose if a heart/Q/J etc hits turn I can give up but then I always ask myself "why I did I raise preflop if I going to be super passive postflop like that"? Why not just limp in, hope to hit but then I did hit, I hit TPTK and I still wasnt sure what the best line was.
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