Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to .25/.50 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-25-2012, 02:07 PM   #1
Durrrr941
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 48
JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

This villain has 13/13 in just 20 hands.

How would you play this hand differently?



    Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #15145041

    BTN: $18.69 (186.9 bb)
    SB: $4.90 (49 bb)
    BB: $8.21 (82.1 bb)
    UTG+1: $13.12 (131.2 bb)
    UTG+2: $13.96 (139.6 bb)
    MP1: $3.83 (38.3 bb)
    MP2: $11.19 (111.9 bb)
    Hero (MP3): $12.07 (120.7 bb)
    CO: $13.55 (135.5 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J J
    UTG+1 raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60

    Flop: ($1.95) T Q Q (2 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1

    Turn: ($3.95) T (2 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.88, UTG+1 calls $1.88

    River: ($7.71) 3 (2 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
    Durrrr941 is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #2
    Rapidesh123
    Pooh-Bah
     
    Rapidesh123's Avatar
     
    Join Date: May 2012
    Location: Showing who's the boss
    Posts: 4,169
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    terrible raise pre-flop, he is never calling with worse there...
    also the flop is pretty much terrible for you, most of his calling hands(TT-AA, AK, AQ) hit that board, you're in terribad shape against TT,QQ, KK, AA, AQ also in a coin-flip situation against AK, and losing to AhKh, as played i would check behind OTF and give up on almost any reasonable bet unless i hit a fullhouse


    just think a little more about your 3-bets pre-flop, look at villains position, he is UTG, and his opening range should be tight there, stop smashing buttons and start thinking before your actions
    Rapidesh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-25-2012, 11:59 PM   #3
    woolly
    veteran
     
    Join Date: Apr 2011
    Location: Medellin, Colombia
    Posts: 2,881
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Just flat pre, you're effectively turning JJ into a bluff here. I'd also be flatting QQ-KK fwiw.

    As played post, I'm checking back flop and turn.
    woolly is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 12:06 AM   #4
    ilovesmokes
    journeyman
     
    ilovesmokes's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Mar 2011
    Location: Canada
    Posts: 341
    Call pre. When you raise and he calls you are setting jacks on fire.
    ilovesmokes is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 12:07 AM   #5
    Ensano
    adept
     
    Ensano's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Apr 2008
    Posts: 996
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    i like to just flat with JJ to an utg raise unless I know V is wide (very rare). also don't get carried away with low flops. most villains don't raise utg and get carried away with overcards.
    Ensano is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 03:22 AM   #6
    K40cheddar
    veteran
     
    K40cheddar's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Nov 2010
    Location: Chicago
    Posts: 2,531
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    you can start by flatting pre
    K40cheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 04:31 AM   #7
    LolDonkamentz
    veteran
     
    LolDonkamentz's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Jul 2010
    Location: London / Meribel
    Posts: 2,564
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Just flat pre, you're effectively turning JJ into a bluff here. I'd also be flatting QQ-KK fwiw.

    As played post, I'm checking back flop and turn.
    Flatting KK here?
    LolDonkamentz is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 05:36 AM   #8
    woolly
    veteran
     
    Join Date: Apr 2011
    Location: Medellin, Colombia
    Posts: 2,881
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LolDonkamentz View Post
    Flatting KK here?
    Yes?
    woolly is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 07:45 AM   #9
    Husker
    Carpal \'Tunnel
     
    Husker's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Feb 2007
    Location: Holsten's Diner
    Posts: 9,145
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LolDonkamentz View Post
    Flatting KK here?
    This is pretty standard here.
    Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 11:22 AM   #10
    Boulet Special
    journeyman
     
    Boulet Special's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Jan 2011
    Location: down a barrel of buschmills
    Posts: 243
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Husker View Post
    This is pretty standard here.
    care to share ur thought progress
    Boulet Special is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 03:10 PM   #11
    Csaba
    veteran
     
    Join Date: Jan 2009
    Posts: 2,582
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    I would 3bet KK if villain was running at 0/0 and his name was Nitty McNitterson.

    We only have 20 hands FFS.

    I agree with flatting JJ here.
    Csaba is online now   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 04:02 PM   #12
    Husker
    Carpal \'Tunnel
     
    Husker's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Feb 2007
    Location: Holsten's Diner
    Posts: 9,145
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Boulet Special View Post
    care to share ur thought progress
    Re flatting KK?

    Villain is utg+1, his range is gonna be pretty tight. If we 3bet him we're gonna look very strong and this allows him to fold a lot of weaker hands that we can get value from by flatting. Basically by flatting we keep his range wider.

    As an example, how do you feel if you're in EP with JJ or AQ and you get 3bet? What's your plan for the hand?
    Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-26-2012, 06:00 PM   #13
    LUVtehNL
    old hand
     
    LUVtehNL's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Mar 2010
    Location: shipping nickles
    Posts: 1,983
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    i donīt like flatting KK pre here at nl10. Itīs just too likely we will get multiway and with a value 3bet, playing the hand straight forward, we do alot better vs an unknown (with unknown players behind aswell) ev wise. we are not closing the action! i might agree tho if we have some reads on the original raiser + we are very confident postflop + the players behind are nits (which we should not expect at nl10 since most of our money comes from people calling too much at micros).
    im playing this for straight value.
    LUVtehNL is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 12:18 AM   #14
    Durrrr941
    newbie
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Location: Canada
    Posts: 48
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Thanks for clear explanation Rapidesh, I am learning a lot since I joined this forum.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rapidesh123 View Post
    terrible raise pre-flop, he is never calling with worse there...
    also the flop is pretty much terrible for you, most of his calling hands(TT-AA, AK, AQ) hit that board, you're in terribad shape against TT,QQ, KK, AA, AQ also in a coin-flip situation against AK, and losing to AhKh, as played i would check behind OTF and give up on almost any reasonable bet unless i hit a fullhouse


    just think a little more about your 3-bets pre-flop, look at villains position, he is UTG, and his opening range should be tight there, stop smashing buttons and start thinking before your actions
    Durrrr941 is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 01:10 AM   #15
    EmptyPromises
    adept
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,170
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    thanks for your contadictory post rapidesh.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rapidesh123 View Post
    terrible raise pre-flop, he is never calling with worse there...
    also the flop is pretty much terrible for you, most of his calling hands(TT-AA, AK, AQ)
    So he's NEVER calling with anything worse when we 3-bet JJ, but he is calling with TT, AK, AQ which is many more worse hands than QQ, KK, AA. does not compute.
    EmptyPromises is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 01:11 AM   #16
    EmptyPromises
    adept
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,170
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Husker View Post
    Re flatting KK?

    Villain is utg+1, his range is gonna be pretty tight. If we 3bet him we're gonna look very strong and this allows him to fold a lot of weaker hands that we can get value from by flatting. Basically by flatting we keep his range wider.

    As an example, how do you feel if you're in EP with JJ or AQ and you get 3bet? What's your plan for the hand?
    If we can't value bet KK, then we should be 3-bet bluffing probably any two cards.
    EmptyPromises is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 03:30 AM   #17
    jackiehoo
    centurion
     
    jackiehoo's Avatar
     
    Join Date: May 2012
    Posts: 158
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    flat JJ is ok ,but flat KK is good?
    I may also flat AK here ,but when I have KK/AA ,i will 3bet/push at pf
    jackiehoo is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 04:50 AM   #18
    bronx.system
    old hand
     
    bronx.system's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Sydney
    Posts: 1,328
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    3b QQ+ for sure ainec its micros people all to much
    bronx.system is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 06:14 AM   #19
    sexdotcom
    Pooh-Bah
     
    sexdotcom's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Nov 2007
    Location: Funny, It Worked Last Time...
    Posts: 3,857
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Are you going to 3bet QQ in this hand vs this villian
    everytime?
    sexdotcom is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 09:56 AM   #20
    Husker
    Carpal \'Tunnel
     
    Husker's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Feb 2007
    Location: Holsten's Diner
    Posts: 9,145
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EmptyPromises View Post
    If we can't value bet KK, then we should be 3-bet bluffing probably any two cards.
    Obviously we can bluff but not ATC. Blockers are best here.
    Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 04:46 PM   #21
    EmptyPromises
    adept
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,170
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Husker View Post
    Obviously we can bluff but not ATC. Blockers are best here.
    No we probably can bluff ATC, it's just that blockers are higher EV. but since bluffing any two cards is +EV, then it's better to bluff them then to fold which is obviously 0 ev.
    EmptyPromises is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 07:19 PM   #22
    Husker
    Carpal \'Tunnel
     
    Husker's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Feb 2007
    Location: Holsten's Diner
    Posts: 9,145
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EmptyPromises View Post
    No we probably can bluff ATC, it's just that blockers are higher EV. but since bluffing any two cards is +EV, then it's better to bluff them then to fold which is obviously 0 ev.
    So you've gone from probably to definitely in 2 sentences. Clearly you've got flaws in your thought process.
    Husker is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 08:24 PM   #23
    Rapidesh123
    Pooh-Bah
     
    Rapidesh123's Avatar
     
    Join Date: May 2012
    Location: Showing who's the boss
    Posts: 4,169
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EmptyPromises View Post
    thanks for your contadictory post rapidesh.

    So he's NEVER calling with anything worse when we 3-bet JJ, but he is calling with TT, AK, AQ which is many more worse hands than QQ, KK, AA. does not compute.
    nobody here calls AQ on that situation, AK is not worse than JJ, also 22-77 may not even be in his UTG range, so what now?

    stop overvaluing your JJ,

    depending on the situation i snap fold my queens pre-flop and it's probably the best play.

    also i smile when some donkeys stackoff with JJ-QQ pre-flop against UTG raisers :-)
    Rapidesh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 08:30 PM   #24
    Rapidesh123
    Pooh-Bah
     
    Rapidesh123's Avatar
     
    Join Date: May 2012
    Location: Showing who's the boss
    Posts: 4,169
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    flatting KK or 3-betting has maaany variables to define which is the best play.

    usually against super nits i flat my KK because they won't get in with QQ,
    also against those guys i 3-bet all the night with AQ, KQ and AK, until they start opening their ****ing range up i'll 3-bet light with those "marginal" holdings.

    why AK, KQ, AQ? because they have blockers, also i don't like flatting KQ or AQ against those guys unless it's suited so i'm inviting some fish to play a multi-way pot and cooler them.

    just don't 3-bet JJ-QQ against almost any villain when he is opening UTG(if it's a reg and isn't a loose reg), just call and play post-flop, i know it's weak to say: "set-mine those jacks/queens", but it's like it, you're almost always trying to have an overpair and get a cbet from villain's PPs and A high, then taking a small pot, or winning a big pot when you're facing set over set or set over an overpair or TPTK(if he is terribad).
    Rapidesh123 is offline   Reply With Quote
    Old 12-28-2012, 09:32 PM   #25
    EmptyPromises
    adept
     
    Join Date: Dec 2012
    Posts: 1,170
    Re: JJ in position against early position raiser 10NL zoom

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Husker View Post
    So you've gone from probably to definitely in 2 sentences. Clearly you've got flaws in your thought process.
    I used the conditional "probably" in two separate posts to be consistent. And never used, "definitely" in any. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

    But how about we try and stay on the argument. Assuming the Villain is opening aoubt 10% from UTG+1, then he's going to have to stack off a minimum of about 2% of hands to keep us from betting any two cards. This doesn't prove that raising is better than calling, but it does mean that QQ, AKs need to stacking off.
    EmptyPromises is offline   Reply With Quote

    Reply
          

    Thread Tools
    Display Modes

    Posting Rules
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off


    Forum Jump


    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:20 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin®
    Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2016 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
    Copyright Đ 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
     
     
    Poker Players - Streaming Live Online