Hello, I was wondering what the general consensus was about playing without Holdem Manager at micro stakes? About myself - i've been playing non regularly at 2nl for a couple of years for fun, and have been making a gradual profit. I have recently decided however to put in more volume and really try and improve my game, firstly at 2nl and then hopefully moving up once my bankroll reaches a certain point. (extreme management!)

I try to analyse a lot of hands, both ones posted on 2+2, and my own, but i'm unsure about the level of understanding I can reach about how I could have played better, beyond my play based on my position/hole cards. I try to make notes on players, e.g. never folds to cbet, and can recognise who's a reg or not, but thats about the very basic limit. It's hard to make decisions in the moment based on purely my own observations, especially when playing more than 4 tables. Where normally, people would be asking things like, whats villain's PFR/VPIP stats and letting that inform their decisions. I feel very blind.

The advice I have got so far from friends who are winning regulars at higher stakes is that I should wait and only get it if I actually do move up/take it more seriously because of the cost of the manager. However, I'm worried that i'm at a major disadvantage to the better players at the table, and won't be able to improve, especially beyond 2nl. I know I don't strictly need it currently as i am a winning player, but in order to deepen my understanding of the game and improve properly should I invest? Or keep going as I am, improving through reading and note taking? Sorry for rambling, and I hope it's alright to put this here and not the beginners forum.

Holdem Manager isn't "necessary" I wouldn't say, simply because there are other ways to track your stats, and other HUDs you can use for free that are pretty decent. Holdem Manager comes with a wide variety of other stuff that can really help your game though. I used the free trial period for HEM to try it out, was extremely impressed with the program. I'd recommend you do the same. You get a free trial for like 30 days I think, in which you can use all the features even the ones that cost extra money for free. Overall, HEM will definitely help you improve your game, however, also not "necessary". I plan to buy HEM in the future. I'm having a perfectly fine time beating the micros without it right now though.

Speaking from my own experience, I'd strongly recommend it. I only play occasionally and I'm a poor to deeply-average player, but I downloaded the trial for Poker Tracker and had made enough during the trial period to cover cost of it. The trial for PT is 60 days, whereas for HEM, I believe it's 15 days.

Give the trial a spin and make up your own mind. But I'm pretty sure once you've used it, you'll be very happy to invest. I can't imagine not playing without a HUD now.

I use fpdb which is free open source tracking and HUD software, and I would highly recommend it. It isn't comaptible with ZOOM and probably doesn't have all the features that HEM has, but it's seen me right from 2nl to 10nl.

The wiki page with links to download it is here:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page

and there's a 2+2 support forum here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...2012-a-273001/

It's a bit of a pain to install though, so let me know if you get stuck (I did a few times)

You don't need holdemmanager

A good friend of mine used to make 3bb/100 16 tabling 10NL cascaded just doing ABC poker. Of course, I am sure he can make 10bb/100 if he had a HUD or is paying attention.

Ok, thanks for all the help! I shouldn't have specified HEM - I meant any kind of hand tracking software! The 60 day trial for Pokertracker sounds great, I think i'll do it.

Was reading the wiki page and saw this under supported operating systems: 'OSX - has worked for motivated people, but it isn't for the faint of heart.'
Errr not the most tech savy person so might leave this for now!

haven't even read the OP, but...........YES

No one needs any software to be at least a 10 bb/100 winner at the micros.

The current level of analysis that you use in your awareness of villains' habits is equivalent to using a HUD at micro stakes.

If you're already winning at 10 bb/100 and you can get to win 20 bb/100, then 10 bb/100 more is the difference you gain from the program... at 2NL that's $2 per thousand hands. The money spent on the program is money that is not reinvested into playing 4NL or 5NL, or even 10NL, where the cost of the the program is now a significantly smaller portion of your BR.

HUD's are over-rated. They encourage people to think of villains' ranges, and that makes them useful, but you already do that. Also, consider the idea of building up to those 30k hands so that 4-bet stats become meaningful... well... how much are you learning at 2NL?... How long before you're rolled for 5NL? How many hands before you're playing 10NL? even at 10 bb/100? Well less than 30k hands per level. So the stats don't even reflect the current level of play if you look back over the baby steps of a beginning player.

Save your money and re-invest in yourself by leaving it in your BR. When you are rolled to play 25NL, then spend the 4 BI or so that the program will cost you.

I prefer Poker Tracker 3 I love the options and stats that it gives you such as other player details fold to cbet/ 3 bet %/ all that good stuff . Plus I like to mark hands to go thru and learn from my mistakes . I took the free trial and will be buying it on my next payday . Since there is a free trial I don't see why you would not try it out .

I've beat 25 for a very long time without using HEM/Pokertracker. Then someday I realized all the money I'd been wasting...

I like HUDs just because I don't have to pay 100% attention to all my tables. If I get bored, I can always browse 2+2 while I grind without losing reads on villain's tendencies. That said, the way you configure your HUD is the crucial part of maximizing HUD value.

@Madmojomonkey. I understand what you're saying, and despite the advantages it may seem to give me, if I was winning anyway then that does seem like a waste of money. I was just thinking it might help speed up and develop my learning and understanding of the game in the more advanced areas, as I could apply the methods people use here to analyse my own hands more effectively, and then improve... I'll see how the trial goes over the next 60 days. Can't hurt to try!

The 60 day trial for Pokertracker sounds like Version 3. Version 4 is out, and it is available as a beta version which has no expiration date yet.

Use the free trial, by all means... but be wary of dishing out $$$ for it. All poker expenses come out of your BR, if you think about it. That makes any purchase of books or software just as important of an equity decision as a how you play a hand.

There are more cost-effective ways to use your BR to your advantage at the micros than shelling out 50 BI for a program. If you really just feel like you need a HUD, consider getting a free one and spend some time figuring it out and setting it up. Spend what you must to get what you need. Don't buy a Mercedes when you need a bicycle.