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Micro Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to .25/.50 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 10-22-2013, 05:09 PM   #26
jaypatel33
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Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitapita View Post
If it's close think about stack sizes, opponent tendencies (will he flat, does he bluff too much)
OK cool, so its more of a depends. Usually I end up getting confused and just 4bet jam.





    Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #20132251

    Hero (CO): $10.31 (103.1 bb)
    BTN: $4.83 (48.3 bb)
    SB: $10.36 (103.6 bb)
    BB: $4.35 (43.5 bb)
    UTG+1: $10.92 (109.2 bb)
    UTG+2: $9.91 (99.1 bb)
    MP1: $3.32 (33.2 bb)
    MP2: $7.33 (73.3 bb)
    MP3: $10.63 (106.3 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with Q Q
    5 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN raises to $0.70, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.10, BTN calls $0.40

    Flop: ($2.35) 9 K 6 (2 players)
    Hero bets $1.50, BTN calls $1.50

    Turn: ($5.35) 6 (2 players)
    Hero checks, BTN bets $2.23 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.23

    River: ($9.81) 2 (2 players, 1 is all-in)




    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.



    Here villain is 16/5, 70 hands,

    and decided to min4bet without really thinking postflop. The thing is with an SPR of 1, don't we need to always stack off here? But do we get called by worse, like JJ/TT, I actually think a lot of times we do.
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    Old 10-28-2013, 09:31 AM   #27
    Doofus Krondelly
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    The problem I have with this thread is it seems a bit too GTO heavy, and therefore not that easy to apply in-game since our short-stacking opponents won't be playing GTO.

    For instance the post-flop bluffing frequencies, 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 don't seem that useful to me, since you need to know more about the villain's range.

    After 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 you say this:

    ''From examples 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 notice how a small difference in stack size results in a significant increase in the amount of folds we need to be able to shove''

    Isn't it the other way round, where a large difference in stack size, (40bb's increased to 60bb's, 50% increase), results in an insignificant amount of folds we need to be able to shove, (from 57% to only 62%, a 9% increase)?

    Last edited by Doofus Krondelly; 10-28-2013 at 09:36 AM.
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    Old 10-30-2013, 01:09 PM   #28
    pitapita
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doofus Krondelly View Post
    The problem I have with this thread is it seems a bit too GTO heavy, and therefore not that easy to apply in-game since our short-stacking opponents won't be playing GTO.

    For instance the post-flop bluffing frequencies, 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 don't seem that useful to me, since you need to know more about the villain's range.

    After 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 you say this:

    ''From examples 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 notice how a small difference in stack size results in a significant increase in the amount of folds we need to be able to shove''

    Isn't it the other way round, where a large difference in stack size, (40bb's increased to 60bb's, 50% increase), results in an insignificant amount of folds we need to be able to shove, (from 57% to only 62%, a 9% increase)?
    9% might not even be a single hand in early position where ranges are tight so a lot of the time it's thinking "will he fold JJ?"

    I dunno about the GTO comment, it works for me.

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    Old 10-30-2013, 09:52 PM   #29
    Randizzle
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pitapita View Post
    9% might not even be a single hand in early position where ranges are tight so a lot of the time it's thinking "will he fold JJ?"

    I dunno about the GTO comment, it works for me.

    Aren't these results skewed since a lot of fish buyin for 40BB as well?
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    Old 10-31-2013, 10:53 AM   #30
    pitapita
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Yeah but if I didn't have the filter there are fish too.

    I saw 3 other micro FR player's graphs with this filter and 2 of them are losing so it's not just like there is a higher % of fish, everyone wins.
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    Old 11-27-2013, 05:32 AM   #31
    Horribleplay702
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    I've made threads about this but rarely get a lot of replies. I play on UltimatePoker, it's the first legal online Nevada site. The 6max games never run so I've been playing FR. The thing is the FR tables are 20bbmin 50bb max tables. So you're always short stacked. My question is how should I adjust my play since everyone is playing short stacked?

    Please any advice is appreciated.
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    Old 12-01-2013, 04:35 AM   #32
    CashGrinder
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Horribleplay702 View Post
    The thing is the FR tables are 20bbmin 50bb max tables. So you're always short stacked.
    I'm playing on WPN in a neighboring state and it's the same thing here at the nanostakes. The majority of players are joining short stacked tables and even playing those short, simply looking for opportunities to jam and double up.

    This thread intrigues me for that reason, of course. I'm going to watch the videos and see what else I can learn about dealing with these shorties.
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    Old 12-10-2013, 08:00 PM   #33
    dumbandbored
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    Ak? Vs 40bb steal

    My personal anguish. Latest situation. Once I 3 bet someone else.

    Ep opens 3 bb
    I raise on button to 8 with aks
    guy cold shoves in small blind for 40bb
    Ep folds

    I don't want to fold. But I'm generally looking at jj+. Do I really need the flip or be 30% or 7%. I'm guessing its a fold.

    On the flip side. If he's winning everytime he shoves on me ak jj qq and I'm with ak then it's gonna make up for times he's wrong and I have aa or kk?

    Excuse me if this is wrote somewhat incoherent. I'm basing this on no stats. I'm guessing over 30 Vpip and it's a fist pump go. But I'm trying to make this call or fold based on no info playing on mobile app
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    Old 12-21-2013, 11:35 PM   #34
    WhyDid I doThat :|
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    When you talk about hands we react to when 4bet, why not just flat our entire range?
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    Old 12-21-2013, 11:38 PM   #35
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Is it not extremely na´ve and face up to just say, "we will min 5ball and rip it with teh nuts but we're balanced because we'll 5b bluff"
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    Old 02-08-2014, 07:53 PM   #36
    n86xps
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    This is too good. Thanks so much for this work!
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    Old 02-08-2014, 08:02 PM   #37
    n86xps
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Just wanted to argue a bit about the betsizings. I thought, that betting the same % of the pot is only optimal when NOTHING changes (like some toy game, with no draws/board cards but multiple streets discussed in the MOP). So it is likely, that GTO solutions will have a lot of bet 80% OTF, 60% on such turn cards, and 40% on such.. Or am I missing the point here?
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    Old 05-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #38
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    Thumbs up Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Hope nobody minds me putting this here. I'm mostly asking the mods if there's been a "plan your hand" COTW because I could swear there was one with that exact name but I can't find it. If not, I'm already working on one because reading through threads I think this is one of the biggest leaks among micro players and it's so easy to avoid with a little bit of thought.

    i am jessyj/chargersin07, 08, etc. if you don't know.
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    Old 05-30-2014, 05:13 AM   #39
    Csaba
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
    Hope nobody minds me putting this here. I'm mostly asking the mods if there's been a "plan your hand" COTW because I could swear there was one with that exact name but I can't find it. If not, I'm already working on one because reading through threads I think this is one of the biggest leaks among micro players and it's so easy to avoid with a little bit of thought.

    i am jessyj/chargersin07, 08, etc. if you don't know.
    This is a definite leak of mine.

    Please post it
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    Old 03-05-2015, 11:46 PM   #40
    TheWineGuy
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Short stack torture is brutal
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    Old 03-06-2015, 10:59 PM   #41
    Logwyn
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Thanks for the thread Peter. I did not see this explicitly addressed ITT, but this seems to be dealing with players that are playing a Short Stack Strategy, not just buying in short. Is this accurate?

    I noticed this was touched on before when you posted your results about the fish filter, but it seems that there would be a skew between a true SSS and low buy-ins. Thanks

    This is great, I just want to clarify that I am understanding this correctly.
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    Old 03-22-2015, 01:05 PM   #42
    sometimesfold
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    .
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    Old 03-22-2015, 02:44 PM   #43
    KraventheHunter
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

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    .
    Post of the year. Excellent use of negative space.
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    Old 04-04-2015, 04:23 AM   #44
    TomLeach
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    Thanks for the thread Peter. I did not see this explicitly addressed ITT, but this seems to be dealing with players that are playing a Short Stack Strategy, not just buying in short. Is this accurate?

    I noticed this was touched on before when you posted your results about the fish filter, but it seems that there would be a skew between a true SSS and low buy-ins. Thanks

    This is great, I just want to clarify that I am understanding this correctly.
    Im pretty sure that buying in for 40bb or so, is just a negative strategy, I havent done the numbers, but whilst there is an optimal strategy for 20bb etc thats profitable, I usually add buying in for 40bb to my 'Are you a fish?' Checklist.
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    Old 04-08-2015, 12:17 AM   #45
    .isolated
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    Club Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TomLeach View Post
    Im pretty sure that buying in for 40bb or so, is just a negative strategy, I havent done the numbers, but whilst there is an optimal strategy for 20bb etc thats profitable, I usually add buying in for 40bb to my 'Are you a fish?' Checklist.
    Back when BF hit I was playing a 40bb strat. I was a big winner at 100 and 200 full stacking but got bored. It's an easy winning strategy if you put the time and effort into the math just like with 20bb. However, I think 40bb is way > 20bb because more to win, regs will call off way to wide because "**** this shorty", and multitabling regs refuse to adjust to the shorty because they're "so bad" that they don't need to when they're being exploited. I'm a huge math guy so I was interested in it and had a lot of fun with it.
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    Old 04-08-2015, 08:21 AM   #46
    TomLeach
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by .isolated View Post
    Back when BF hit I was playing a 40bb strat. I was a big winner at 100 and 200 full stacking but got bored. It's an easy winning strategy if you put the time and effort into the math just like with 20bb. However, I think 40bb is way > 20bb because more to win, regs will call off way to wide because "**** this shorty", and multitabling regs refuse to adjust to the shorty because they're "so bad" that they don't need to when they're being exploited. I'm a huge math guy so I was interested in it and had a lot of fun with it.
    Fair enough, but higher variance then? I know some people shot take with a 40bb stack... I will perhaps look into it
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    Old 04-08-2015, 01:20 PM   #47
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Def higher variance but really not much more because unlike with 20bbs you're still reading hands and can fold. The biggest problem with most regs vs 40bbs (back then at least) was that their ranges rarely changed because they're nits. I only play on Merge now but I'd be shocked if the play of regs wasn't similar and tbh I don't think much has changed since BF since players were already good back then.
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    Old 04-13-2015, 06:11 PM   #48
    JoeyJoJo Shabadu
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Can't hit and run repeatedly anymore really.

    https://www.pokerstars.com/poker/roo...n-obligations/

    And I think 40 and 50bb is the minimum now? Kind of /thread for Stars or am I mistaken?

    Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabadu; 04-13-2015 at 06:17 PM.
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    Old 04-21-2016, 06:12 PM   #49
    downswinger
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Short stacks are high variance for me, all day they've been shoving into my two pairs and sets and making straights and flushes on the river. I can barely make a straight when everyone's checking it down. Sweaty rat bags
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    Old 11-25-2016, 12:52 PM   #50
    La Onza
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    Re: COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers

    Peter: this is an amazing post. I have just completed a first-pass of your materials and probably only retained about 10% of what you are saying. So I am looking forward to multiple passes through your post. Thank you for such a rich contribution to this community's knowledge base.
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