Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > No Limit Hold'em > Micro Stakes Full Ring

Notices

Micro Stakes Full Ring Discussion of up to .25/.50 online no-limit pot-limit Texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2010, 04:17 AM   #76
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Cangurino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Back in Europe
Posts: 10,863
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky View Post
Also, the people who are complaining about the AK example and "I wouldn't fold there, blah blah blah" are missing the point. this isn't a how to play a hand thread - it's what things should you think about.
I wasn't complaining about the fold. I was complaining about the thought process which considered only three options: Limping (which was discarded immediately without proper consideration), 3x-folding (which wasn't profitable), and open-folding. But maybe this goes beyond this thread's topic.
Cangurino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 09:11 AM   #77
because i can
 
JL514's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,451
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Just pretend he had AQ.

The point was not only do you have some cards, but your EP so look behind you before you act -- it can and should drastically change your thought process and final decision.
JL514 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 02:33 PM   #78
binking
 
udbrky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: espressin with my full capabilities
Posts: 24,877
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
agree on all accounts. i like you
aw, wanna make out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cangurino View Post
I wasn't complaining about the fold. I was complaining about the thought process which considered only three options: Limping (which was discarded immediately without proper consideration), 3x-folding (which wasn't profitable), and open-folding. But maybe this goes beyond this thread's topic.
The point wasn't really what he's going to do - but the things he thinks about, the decisions he's going to make. I think it's similar to a spot that comes up a lot where you have a weak Ax in the SB, or like K5o, or any other fairly weak hand that doesn't play well OOP, and it folds to you.

I think by default, opening most of your hands in the SB when it folds to you is good. But, you have to look at the BB. If I'm getting 3bet a ton - like if he has a resteal in the BB of 12%+, I'm not going to steal with a lot of my weak trash that I'll just fold. He's probably 3betting 1/4 of the time bvb, so I just let a lot go.

If he's folding BB to steal 85%+, then I'm going to open just about ATC.

It's just knowing what things to think about and not just going "Oh, I have xy, I have to do Z because that's what you do." Poker is so much more situational than following any kind of static chart will ever allow.

And I think that's the point of what he's saying - know what goes into your decision and think about the factors. Maybe he shouldn't have shown any cards.

He even says he doesn't want to get into the whole creating 4b from EP dynamic there. There's so many more factors that play into what to do. It's not the scope of the video. I think people are focusing too much on the "I wouldnt' fold AK there" factor. And FTR, I'm never open-folding AK in a non-satellite situation, unless a person behind me turns over AA and says he'll shove.
udbrky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 03:07 PM   #79
adept
 
lien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 831
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky View Post
Poker is so much more situational than following any kind of static chart will ever allow.
this!
lien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 03:35 PM   #80
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,345
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by udbrky View Post
Also, the people who are complaining about the AK example and "I wouldn't fold there, blah blah blah" are missing the point. this isn't a how to play a hand thread - it's what things should you think about.
Well, it's pretty much the only thing that's really arguable in the video, so it makes sense it would draw the most discussion.

I forget if this branch is mentioned in the video, but I usually try and think of a HU vs MW flop and how I'd approach each.
DDAWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2010, 03:59 PM   #81
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,214
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDAWD View Post
Well, it's pretty much the only thing that's really arguable in the video, so it makes sense it would draw the most discussion.

I forget if this branch is mentioned in the video, but I usually try and think of a HU vs MW flop and how I'd approach each.
i only verbally mentioned MW v HU...i didnt show a visual tree of that (making those damn trees was a total PITA, lol)
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:11 PM   #82
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
funkyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: working without a 27b/6
Posts: 6,130
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

slight derail, language quibble:

at 10m30s, the popup shows
Quote:
Originally Posted by popup
if we think his CR range is super nutted, then we should fold vs it
and you say
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoken in the video
... if we think that he rarely bluffs and raises ... why would we call it (the C/R)? ... he wouldn't turn TT-QQ into a bluff by raising so his range would be incredibly polarized...
My quibble is with the word polarized. In regular english (and poker, IMO) polarized means to split something into two groups that are opposites (e.g. nuts and air).

To say that a villains range is somewhat polarize means (again, IMO) that there is more nuts/air in his range and less value hands. If we say his range is very polarized then we mean it has nothing but nuts/air.

If, on the other hand, we say villains range is 100% nuts (e.g. nut range = sets in the video at 10m30s) and 0% air (air range = 33, 55, 66) then it is unipolar. On the Deuce Plays podcast Bart Hanson does this all the time and I think his listeners have complained about him misusing "polarized (bi-polar ==> nuts/air)" when he means unipolar (narrow + very strong).

despite how commonly people do it, it is incorrect to say "polarized" when we really mean "a narrow, strong range".

I'm nit picking here because
  • I'm interested in learning if my understanding of the term polarized is wrong
  • helping tighten up the wording if I'm not wrong

As usual, the video is great.
funkyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:20 PM   #83
centurion
 
iSHORTSTACK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: LOL SHORTSTACKING
Posts: 122
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

a range can be polarized with weight. For instance, take a situation an AKJ4T board. and well say a player's bet is polarized. He can have a range of 90/10 bluff/nuts, 50/50 bluff/nuts, 20/80 bluffs/nuts, or 100/0 bluff nuts. while your usage of "unipolar" is correct, it would only be correctly used in that part of the video if his range was totally 100/0 or 0/100, which of course we couldnt be sure of. but if even 1% of his range goes nuts or bluff (99/1, 1/99) then polarized is correct

i believe anyway. otherwise I have been using it incorrectly for years lol
iSHORTSTACK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:21 PM   #84
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
funkyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: working without a 27b/6
Posts: 6,130
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cangurino View Post
Great ideas, and great food for thought.

However if you allow some constructive criticism: I personally would find this particular contents much easier to digest in a text based format. I don't feel doing a video adds much value here, and I'm forced to follow Split's speed of thought rather than my own. This is aggravated by the fact that voice and text on the screen sometimes present different, complementing information, which makes it hard to follow unless you're a multitasking native speaker. (I'm aware that most media players these days have a pause button.)

I'll probably end up making a transcript and reading it at my leisure.
I am an native speaker and I find the verbal pace a bit fast.

I agree that for me, slides from the video + transcript would be the ideal format. At the very least, I would recommend Split work on slowing down a bit and adding more pauses for viewers to think.

Regardless of format, the material is thought provoking and valuable!
funkyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:33 PM   #85
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
funkyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: working without a 27b/6
Posts: 6,130
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSHORTSTACK View Post
a range can be polarized with weight. For instance, take a situation an AKJ4T board. and well say a player's bet is polarized. He can have a range of 90/10 bluff/nuts, 50/50 bluff/nuts, 20/80 bluffs/nuts, or 100/0 bluff nuts. while your usage of "unipolar" is correct, it would only be correctly used in that part of the video if his range was totally 100/0 or 0/100, which of course we couldnt be sure of. but if even 1% of his range goes nuts or bluff (99/1, 1/99) then polarized is correct

i believe anyway. otherwise I have been using it incorrectly for years lol
Sounds good. I guess my disconnect is translating "we think he is never check/raising without the nuts" means 100% / 0%. If instead we always translate this to at least 1% air (as Harrington tells us we should) then the traditional (non-poker) meaning of polarized still fits.

Thanks.
funkyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 05:45 PM   #86
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,214
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
I am an native speaker and I find the verbal pace a bit fast.

I agree that for me, slides from the video + transcript would be the ideal format. At the very least, I would recommend Split work on slowing down a bit and adding more pauses for viewers to think.

Regardless of format, the material is thought provoking and valuable!
i take it you never saw my first few vids from Stox? lol...i talked as fast as Bryce does in my vids back then
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 06:35 PM   #87
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
funkyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: working without a 27b/6
Posts: 6,130
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Split* View Post
i take it you never saw my first few vids from Stox? lol...i talked as fast as Bryce does in my vids back then
I don't recall the speed of your early videos as that was a while ago.

regarding the "sometimes it sounds like you are reading from a script" comment -- I noticed this at the end. I probably wouldn't have noticed if others hadn't commented and I don't think it is a bad thing. Actually, I like the pace of your speech when you a reading your script much better than your conversational pace. With your conversational pace I have to hit pause a lot so I don't miss stuff when I actually think about what you just said.

derail: unsolicited product plug: MySpeed allows you to control playback speed of video. I've used their related product 2xAV to barge through some RealPlayer video courses at work. It is great to be able to skim over known material at 150% - 200% speed and then slow down to normal or even slow (80%) speed for complex material.

EDIT: finished the video and loved it. I definitely agree with your folding AK in EP comment with the caveat that if there are several folks who 3bet a lot (e.g. 11%) behind us then I would think opening for 3.5x and then 4betting (if we are HU) would be profitable. Clearly though, AK OOP hates a MW pot. Even against aggressive donks (e.g. likely to call PF for a MW pot and then show aggression on the flop)

Last edited by funkyj; 08-06-2010 at 06:45 PM.
funkyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2010, 10:19 PM   #88
See my coaching listing
 
*Split*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: making videos
Posts: 9,214
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyj View Post
I don't recall the speed of your early videos as that was a while ago.

regarding the "sometimes it sounds like you are reading from a script" comment -- I noticed this at the end. I probably wouldn't have noticed if others hadn't commented and I don't think it is a bad thing. Actually, I like the pace of your speech when you a reading your script much better than your conversational pace. With your conversational pace I have to hit pause a lot so I don't miss stuff when I actually think about what you just said.

derail: unsolicited product plug: MySpeed allows you to control playback speed of video. I've used their related product 2xAV to barge through some RealPlayer video courses at work. It is great to be able to skim over known material at 150% - 200% speed and then slow down to normal or even slow (80%) speed for complex material.

EDIT: finished the video and loved it. I definitely agree with your folding AK in EP comment with the caveat that if there are several folks who 3bet a lot (e.g. 11%) behind us then I would think opening for 3.5x and then 4betting (if we are HU) would be profitable. Clearly though, AK OOP hates a MW pot. Even against aggressive donks (e.g. likely to call PF for a MW pot and then show aggression on the flop)
thank you sir. and i dont know why i got off script for some of the video. o well. glad you liked it =)
*Split* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2010, 06:52 AM   #89
adept
 
lien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 831
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

polarized, de-polarized, unipolar, balanced, un-balanced, merged range, balancing, merging...

sometime ago i read a thread about Range Polarization

unfortunately, now, as back then, i'm even more confused about these terms. my head explode when i try to 100% understand them because i'm such a (mathematical) nit when it comes to defining and using words/terms

maybe a (dictionary style) COTW about defining and using these concepts in poker is needed...

anyone pls ?
lien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2010, 12:21 PM   #90
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere Special
Posts: 13,792
Re: COTW: Planning And Default Line Creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by lien View Post
unfortunately, now, as back then, i'm even more confused about these terms. my head explode when i try to 100% understand them because i'm such a (mathematical) nit when it comes to defining and using words/terms

maybe a (dictionary style) COTW about defining and using these concepts in poker is needed...

anyone pls ?
Read the FAQs.

#11
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive