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Old 03-22-2010, 06:52 PM   #1
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COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Hello FRuNL!

Unfortunatly the planned author of this COTW had to step away due to a conflict of interest, and so it fell to me. I hope I can cover adequately. Additionally, I want to make this thread the catch-all for all bonus/promotion questions and answers. As such, I will do my best to outline some principals of getting value from your poker site, but I'm hoping the community can stup up over the course of the week and add posts to this thread filling in the details and specifics for each poker site and each promotion. The COTW is what you make it.

I'm sure all the eggheads hear can't wait to figure out whether PokerStars or FullTilt gives you an extra .25% of "rakeback" at your stakes, and we'll get there, but before we do, I'd like to talk about some of the other things about poker sites that provide you value.

Security

PokerStars and FullTilt are the gold standard in this area, by the fact that they offer secure encryption key login options.

This isn't such a concern for most mocrostakes grinders. but once you start moving up, with it publicly known that you keep thousands of dollars online and google able to retrieve your anme, address, birthdate, etc., avoiding a low-probability catastrophic breach becaomes a legitimate consideration.

For more information on general security for poker players read the Computer Security COTW.


Support

Need you account shut down because your drunk roomate is joyriding while you're away? Need a question answered before a tournement starts in 30 minutes? What happened to the other $200 in your account? Why haven't yourecieved that p2p transer the guy on AIM said he sent?

Having a competent support staff is another one of those things you might not think about until its too late. By all accounts PokerStars is the gold standard in this area.


Stability

Anyone who spends a lot of time playing poker on the internet should persure the Internet Poker forum (the Zoo) from time to time.

The place is littered with 1000-post threads ofsmall and shady sites shutting down overnight and taking everyone's money with them. Recently there was the Eurolinx deabcle, where overnight the principals in the complany disapeared and the site shut down and the players lost ALL their money. Eurlinx, despite the name, was open to American players and going back to 2005 or so had some of the BEST bonus/rakeback promotions anywhere. Its only because of luck (and ennui) that I didn't move some play there and lose money like everyone else. Turns out the incredible rakeback plus bonuses was unsustainable and they were paying them out with player funds.

Of course, there are no guarantees anywhere. But what value does stable history, large installed base, relative transparency hold? It could be quite a bit. OK, enough PS and FTP carwashing, moving on...


Withdrawals

Your money isn't worth much if you can't get it.

In this day and age when withdrawal avenues can be shut down from time to time, how many different options does your site have to withdraw? How reliable and how fast is it? Does it cost money to withdraw, essentially adding an additional vig on top of rake onto your winnings? How are exchangerates handled?

From what I've heard, PokerStars handles the last item quite well, giving you market-rate exchange rates and letting the money hit your account in your home currency thus avoiding fees and rates from your bank.

FTP withdrawals don't cost money, but do impact your MGR. Luckily only for a couple bucks in most instances.

Bank Wire withdrawals will usually be the most expensive form of withdrawing, with an unknown percent taken out depending on how many banks take a cut from the money while it makes its way to you. Its still often the best option for large withdrawals, as the time involved doing multiple cashouts to withdraw $10k+ can be a PITA.


Software

Does the site work with your tracker, allowing you to not only record results, but also analyze your play? Are there addon software packages that improve the sites playability such as TableNinja? Are the tables resizable or stackable for muass-tabling? How many tables can you play simultaneously? Are the controls, fast, easy, and clear? Is a lot of time wasted between hands reducing your hands/hour? Does the client crash often?

The fishiest games on the planet might not be worth playing if you can't access them, or you get disconnected frequently. For example, BoDog (which is widely considered quite fishy) restricts you to only 3 tables at a time. Through the years some clients I've used were barely functional. At the end of the day what is right for you is a matter of opinion, but calculating your rakeback to the neatest tenth of a percent is futile if the site holds you back in other ways.


Game Selection

What do you play?

The most obvious foactor in game selection is a qorum of players at your stakes; it doesn't matter if the site will let you play 24 tables if only 2 are running of your game. In this regard obviously the big sites have the edge.

But there's more to be considered than just the size of the the site. The big guys have all stakes down to .01/.02, but some of the smaller rooms have nothing lower than .05.10. The very worst players will always play the lowest game available, leading to what I call the "smallest game in the room" effect: the smallest game available in any given room (live or online) will always have a standard of play that is orders of magnatude worse than just one level up. If you are a 10nl players it might be worth your while to play at one of the sites where it is the smallest game in the room.

And there are ways the character of the games can influence the value you get from playing there. The promotions offered at FTP and PS reward regular play, which leads to a lot of regular players. Rakeback and FPP make regs. Large first deposit bonuses, frequent reload bonuses, jackpot and high hand bonuses, all attract casual players and gamblers. None of that will be taken into account in your effective rakeback calculations.


Rake

What sense does it make to calulate the % of your rake you get back without paying attention to what the site is charging in rake to begin with!

For instance, before they changed their rake structure and added mocrostakes games, FTP charged 5% rake at 5nl and above, but 10% at 10nl, while PS was charging only 5% all the way down to 2nl. The rake at 10nl was eggregious at that time, and no matter what the promotions gave you it couldn't overcome the double-rake you were paying. Even now FTP takes rake in smaller increments than PS, which even at the same rake percent increases the effective rake you pay in nano-stakes games.

And those BBJ promotions I was talking about... there's a reason regs avoid them. Its a lottery that you will most liekly never see a cent back from, and for the most part its impact is an extra bb or so taken from every pot you win, which could reduce your winrate potentially as much as 2ptbb/100.

So be sure to look into the rake structure for the games you play and make sure its what you thought it was. Not all rakes are created equal.


"Hourly"

And this, this, is what it all boils down to.

More than just a %, the true value of the site is the sum total of what kind of winrate you can achieve, how many table you can play, how efficently, after rake and minus risk, plus promotions, and into your bankaccount. At the end of the day the smart money is on maximizing your earn, not maximizing the portion of it that is free money.


Integrety

And one last note. Some sites, specifically the Cereus network (AP and UP) have been caught stealing player's money. Are you likely to run into super-users and have your money taken is you play there? No, probably not. But at some point you have to take a stand and decide if you will take any edge available, or if you have limits of what kinds of people and sites you do business with. Will you stand with other players and agree not to line the pockets of those who wronged the player community? The choice is yours.



And now what you've all been waiting for! The deatils of each sites promotions programs!
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:52 PM   #2
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Oh, did I not make it clear that this part of the COTW is up to you? Bring the maths!

Here are some resources I've stumbled across recently:

PokerStars rake equivalancies
FTP points maximization

I will commit to putting together a nice spreadsheet in the next day or two taking the IronMan promotion apart and breaking down exactly how much these damned medals are worth. It would be great if people could chime in with details on whatever sites and promos are out there, especially the non-US sites that don't get as much attention here.
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:56 PM   #3
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

frst!

Last edited by YannickB85; 03-22-2010 at 06:57 PM. Reason: 2th!
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:02 PM   #4
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

First to Read! Good Job OP!
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:10 PM   #5
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

3rd - great post. You are right on regarding the most important factor being hourly rate.

A couple of quick things to add...

Bodog's customer support blows away Pokerstars'. It's not even close. You can call Bodog and talk with someone within a couple minutes of calling.

Cereus can go to hell. I wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole with a condom on it. (For those of you non-Americans, that's 3.1 meters).

Finally, don't forget that it's rigged, there's a doom switch, and you need a site that helps you move up to where they respect your raises.

Last edited by aixelsyd; 03-22-2010 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:33 PM   #6
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

fast

Last edited by Fly-fisher; 03-22-2010 at 07:34 PM. Reason: and I actuakky reas it.
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:44 PM   #7
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

just want to point out that ftps games are infinitely more soft then stars and it doesnt matter if ps offered 100% rakeback im still pretty sure you could make more money on ftp. I cant imagine the euro sites
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:45 PM   #8
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtSF View Post
And those BBJ promotions I was talking about...
What's a BBJ promotion? lol
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Old 03-22-2010, 07:59 PM   #9
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mista Live View Post
What's a BBJ promotion? lol
Bad Beat Jackpot

Typically, a portion of the rake is reserved to pay the player who loses with a great hand. The jackpot can be quite enormous. The "winner" gets a majority of the money, but often the entire table gets something.

Typically the threshold is some mid-level quad hand. Therefore, if you had something like quad 8s and someone had a straight flush, you'd win it. Obviously, the better the hand, the less frequent it pays.

PS. The jackpot isn't free. These sites will have higher rakes and/or worse promotions to compensate for this.
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Old 03-22-2010, 08:01 PM   #10
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

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Bad Beat Jackpot
Oh ok, thanks for clearing that one up!
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Old 03-22-2010, 11:49 PM   #11
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Quote:
Originally Posted by petzergling View Post
just want to point out that ftps games are infinitely more soft then stars and it doesnt matter if ps offered 100% rakeback im still pretty sure you could make more money on ftp. I cant imagine the euro sites
I disagree.....PS is softer by far than FT
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Old 03-23-2010, 02:05 AM   #12
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

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I disagree.....PS is softer by far than FT
This might be the 1st time I've heard this, what limits do you play?
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Old 03-23-2010, 02:07 AM   #13
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

Quote:
Originally Posted by petzergling View Post
just want to point out that ftps games are infinitely more soft then stars and it doesnt matter if ps offered 100% rakeback im still pretty sure you could make more money on ftp. I cant imagine the euro sites
I don't know about the higher stakes, but at full ring 2NL and 5NL. Stars is WWWWAAAAYYYYY softer. Majority people 2NL stars are 30+ VP$IP.
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Old 03-23-2010, 02:20 AM   #14
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

I played PS for a year and then saw a video on here that said you were crazy to play PS if you don't play for a living because the games on FTP were much softer and the rakeback.
I tried it and couldn't believe the difference I could never find a table on PS with a 30% VPIP and such huge avg pots. This is very common on FTP. It's amazing how much softer the games are on FTP. The only advantage PS has is more players which should mean more fish but I haven't found that to be the case.
This is at 25 thru 100NL.
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Old 03-23-2010, 03:28 AM   #15
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Re: COTW: Extracting Value (from your poker site)

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Originally Posted by noobsickle View Post
I don't know about the higher stakes, but at full ring 2NL and 5NL. Stars is WWWWAAAAYYYYY softer. Majority people 2NL stars are 30+ VP$IP.

Yup, you're right. I forgot that Stars does have way softer games at 2nl and 5nl. IIRC, it's because you can buy in deep whereas on FT you can only buy in for 100bb.

I think the games at 10nl and up are definitely easier at FT though because the ability to 24-table attracts a lot of grinders.
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