You need PT3 to perform such an analysis, right? PT2 does not show 3bet stats as far as I know ?!

Can you somehow filter "calling a 3 bet OOP" and "in position"? Would be interested to see the differences in your stats. I would expect to see much higher EV in position.

Correct, regarding PT2, as far as I recall.

In HEM you just run the report on your position page. Not sure if PT3 will let you do that.

Never ran these filters before. Very informative!
It appears to be a fact it is -EV for me calling 3bts.
Great topic.
Will be reading it over several times.

Mpethy - do the filters account for the dead money?
I'm not sure if they do or how big an effect this would have.

Take the simplest example you open AQs and a shorty ships for 20bb.
Assume SS range is 88+ AQ+, against that range we are a dog but with since we are calling ~17 into 40 it becomes a call.
If you run the HEM filters on this it might show you as losing money even though the entire hand was played optimally.

Sorry for using the SS example, I know its not 100% relevant but I wanted to keep the thing simple.

I think I see what I'm doing wrong now!

I started reading this and my first thought was "why is this about 4betting, its supposed to be about 3betting?" As usual, I'm thinking about the wrong things at the wrong times. This was an excellent article! Very helpful.




For the last month I've been taking a crazy LAG game up through the micros, from 2nl to 5nl to 10nl and now 25nl. I haven't seen this kind of adjustment until 25nl. There's an odd player at 10nl that is good at adjusting, but you should have notes on them. At 25nl its much more common for the standard TAGs to catch on and start value-3betting light. I was running about 60vpip at 2nl, 50 vpip at 5nl and 10nl, but I'm down to 30 vpip at 25nl. Its got me feelin' like a nit again.

My basic point is that generally you should respect the 3bet. Like you said, they're not "playing back" nearly as much as you are wont to think, and usually the best thing is to just fold.

It might take a second reading for a lot of this to sink in.

Its not a bluff; as knn pointed out, we are ever so slightly ahead of his range.

And you do not have good set odds at all. Villain is raising so wide that' he's unlikely to have a hand to stack off with if you hit. You're setmining to win his cbet = losing money.

Edited to add: lol I see I was late to the party, the 3rd person to answer this. Meh, I'll leave it up anyway.

LOL, I probably shoulda given Cliff's notes at the beginning of the thread.

Cliff's notes:
1. fold.
2. fold.
3. fold.
4. If you really think they're playing back at you, then you can mix in the correct 4betting frequency and turn the tide just slightly in your favor such that those light 3bettors end up giving you money (slightly +EV for you) instead of bleeding it from you.
5. They're not playing back at you as much as you'd like to think.
6. Protect your button.

(not necessarily in that order )

was this villain me?

^^ I don't think you were villain in that hand. Villain's screen name is nothing like yours so if your Stars screen name is totally different from your 2p2 handle, then possibly. Otherwise, no.

So simple, yet so good.

As for #6, just how wide/often can I be 3b'ing when OTB? Obviously, I'm not pretending to think I can 3b every raise from the BTN and conversely I will never auto-fold every non premium from the BTN, but where's the middle ground? Is the absolute minimum requirement an idea of a person's preflop opening range?

exact same name imo

So this is why you are famous.

Very nice post.

It seriously depends on the dynamic between you and villain. In addition, when I 3bet from the BTN vs. a MP/LP raise depends a lot on villain's pfr% from LP and fold to 3bet%. The one example I gave where I had 24s and 3bet villain from the BTN is to illustrate how the cards really don't matter when the villain to your right has a high pfr% and a high fold 2 3bet% (a recipe for disaster by the way...similarly, if you have a high ATS% and a high fold 2 3bet% then you will slowly bleed money). Certainly, if you're ahead of your villain's range then 3bet wider for value.

No they don't take the dead money into account. As far as I know, you can't take the dead money into account anywhere in HEM or PT3. In your example, HEM will tell you that you had 45% equity preflop and it is up to you to do the math to see whether the dead money plus the shove made it a +EV call.

ts; dr