Sorry guys, we have had our first person fail to deliver a scheduled CotW thread, so I am filling in on no notice.

To be perfectly candid, check raises are a weak part of my game, so I am pretty much the worst person to be doing this topic. I need it to be clear to everybody that this is the first OP in the CotW series that is not intended as an authoritative treatment of the subject it presents. Rather, it is my intention to just get the discussion started.

I'll structure the discussion using my stats, my hands and my play. Feel free to comment or add your own hands or stats to illustrate points.

Using Check Raises

At higher stakes, one of the main reasons for check/raising is to protect your checks when you don't have a hand and you need a free card to improve. You need peple to be wary of your checks and to be more inclined to check behind you rather than make a play on the pot, so you check/raise enough so that they have it in their head that you may very well be setting them up to lose a bet when you check.

In theory, this could work at the micros, but I just don't think people are paying enough attention to you to warrant balancing your actions in this way. It IS increasingly true that the games are getting more aggressive, and that if you check your villain will bet at you a high percentage of the time. This is a good argument for value check/raising maybe more than we have been. But in my opinion, it remains unnecessary to protect our checks, because villains will not step betting at your checks when they have seen you check/raise. Thus, I usually value bet rather than check/raising.

So here are some situations where I will check/raise:

1. I have a big hand on a drawy flop and villain is likely to have and bet nothing.

In this hand from last night I was actually making a play on the big blind, who 3 bet 16% of his opportunities from the big blind. I flatted the steal in the hopes that the BB would squeeze. No luck.

Cut off is a 39/9/2

UTG+2: $59.20
MP1: $92.95
MP2: $256.25
CO: $101.55
BTN: $48.15
Hero (SB): $119.30
BB: $50.00
UTG: $57.65
UTG+1: $58.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with K K
5 folds, CO raises to $2.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.50) 6 5 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.00, Hero raises to $9.50, CO folds

So my thinking was basically what I outlined above. It looks like a pretty drawy board, but it missed, or did not hit very hard, most of the villain's stealing range. I think the cut off's hands are weighted toward the trashy end of his stealing range because he made a big, non-standard raise. I go ahead and check to him with a high degree of confidence that he will c-bet his steal, because this is what people do--they c-bet their steals.

The part of the hand I was uncertain about was the raise, rather than the check. It just seemed to me that there were a lot of cards that would be bad either for my hand or my action. It also seemed that he probably didn't have anything anyway, and that I was likely not getting any further action, so the check/raise wasn't costing me future action often enough to outweigh the following considerations:

a. I look aggressive, and maybe what I said above was wrong and it will slow some people down against me; and,

b. the flop is so low he has to look at it as having missed me, so maybe he thinks my c/r is just a play trying to push him off the pot and he plays back with a little something.

I really don't know whether this was a good use of a c/r or not, but that was the thinking.

2. Using a Short Stacker's Aggression Against Him.

I could come up with dozens of these hands, because I do this as a matter of routine.

The villain in this hand plays 29/15/8 and 3 bets 10%. I usually turbo-muck AQ against a 3 bet OOP, but against someone this loose and aggressive, I felt pretty good about calling. I can also see shoving here, but, realistically, most of his call-a-shove-range is flipping me from slightly ahead or is way ahead, so I preferred calling and seeing the flop.

Hero (UTG+1): $121.20
MP: $10.00
CO: $19.25
BTN: $9.25
SB: $50.25
BB: $52.90
UTG: $19.25

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG+1 with Q A
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, CO raises to $5, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.25

Flop: ($10.75) 5 8 Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6.00, Hero raises to $28.75, CO calls $8.25 all in

Final Pot: $39.25
Hero shows Q A
CO shows 9 9
Hero wins $37.30
(Rake: $1.95)

Three points here:

a. Shorties abuse fold equity.
b. CRAI here looks a little "bluffy."
c. A and B combine to make it very likely that shorty will look me up here thinking I am muscling him with air.

I think this is a standard play post-flop (non-standard preflop, obviously), but it is one of the main uses of a flop c/r.

3. When Your Trash is Probably the Best Hand But You Need to Win Now.

I'm not sure about this one, but I do it all the time. Villain is a pretty weak player--14/6/1.5. He could have a better pocket pair, but I can probably muscle him off that. Otherwise, I have the best hand and he is weakly stabbing with air, but I am going to hate pretty much every card in the deck, so I really can't check/call.

UTG+2: $100.00
MP1: $74.20
MP2: $59.70
Hero (CO): $141.75
BTN: $45.00
SB: $46.25
BB: $111.15
UTG: $50.40
UTG+1: $68.35

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with 3 3
5 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN calls $1.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($3.75) 6 6 Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero raises to $5.50, BTN folds

Final Pot: $6.75
Hero wins $6.45
(Rake: $0.30)

This sort of situation comes up a lot on paired boards because you feel so much better about your small pocket pair because of the combinatorics of a paired board, but the rest of the deck still sucks for you.

Normally I fold or 3 bet 77 in the BB against a button steal, but I sometimes just call; I called this time because this was my first hand at the table, and I never raise light in my first couple of orbits.

SB: $38.90
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $41.90
UTG+1: $75.95
UTG+2: $10.25
MP1: $46.25
MP2: $10.20
CO: $59.35
BTN: $56.35

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with 7 7
6 folds, BTN raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.25) 4 5 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.50, Hero raises to $7.50, BTN folds

Final Pot: $8.25
Hero wins $7.85
(Rake: $0.40)

Again, I have the best hand almost certainly, but I am going to hate most turn cards, and I am oop, so I don't mind winning right now. I don't know--standard or boneheaded?

4. I Check/Raise Big Combo Draws

CO: $23.65
BTN: $50.95
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $20.00
UTG: $40.25
UTG+1: $52.90
UTG+2: $10.00
MP1: $100.25
MP2: $55.55

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with Q A
7 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BB calls $1

Flop: ($3.00) 4 T 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2.50, Hero raises to $48.50, BB folds

Final Pot: $8.00
Hero wins $7.60
(Rake: $0.40)

Flops with flush draws aren't the greatest ones to c-bet with air, so villains expect to see check/folds in spots like this more often than usual. So they are more inclined to bet if you check and fold if you bet. I bet big combo draws a lot, too, but I like check/raising them on occasion.

5. Bluff Check/raising

I look for a high aggression factor, which means that the villain bets and folds or bets and raises, but doesn't bet/call very much. A situation where the villain can't have much of a hand most of the time is nice. here there are lots of hands the villain (AF 4.2) can bet but few he can call a check raise with.

UTG+1: $65.75
UTG+2: $103.45
MP1: $25.00
MP2: $39.85
CO: $51.20
BTN: $50.00
Hero (SB): $136.00
BB: $62.80
UTG: $103.40

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with A K
4 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2, BB calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($4.50) 2 4 J (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3.00, Hero raises to $8.50, BB folds

Final Pot: $10.50
Hero wins $10.00
(Rake: $0.50)

Some Stats on My Check/Raises:

I check raise 6% of flops I see.

40% of all my check raises are from the big blind.

30% of all my check raises are from the small blind, which means

70% of all my check raises are from the blinds.

I'll withhold the precise percentages, but this is a list of what I have when I am check raising the flop from most common to least common:

Top pair
overpair
trips
a set
air
combo draw
two pair
a vulnerable overpair

Check/Raising the Turn

I can cover this very briefly: Often, but not always, these are check/raises all in, and I usually do it with the best hand or a combo draw that I bet the flop with and then bricked on the turn.

I play a lot of deep tables, so I check raise a lot on the turn to build the pot after I have established on the flop that the vilain is going to go with his hand.

Below is a pretty classic case:

BTN: $50.00
SB: $55.55
BB: $50.00
UTG: $94.90
Hero (UTG+1): $145.45
MP1: $101.40
MP2: $62.40
CO: $78.60

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG+1 with 7 7
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, CO calls $1.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($4.25) 7 9 A (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, CO raises to $5, Hero calls $2.50

Turn: ($14.25) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7.50, Hero raises to $27.50, CO calls $20

River: ($69.25) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $69.25, CO calls $44.35 all in

Final Pot: $157.95
Hero shows 7 7
Hero wins $24.90
Hero wins $130.05
(Rake: $3.00)

So the small flop bet was just designed to see if he had an ace, which is the only way I am going to make money on the hand. He minraises, which is awesome, because it gives me an excuse to check to him on the turn.

Actually, in reviewing my DB just now, I saw that my turn check/raises were check/shoves only about 35% of the time, and much lower if you ignore hands against people playing less than 100bb.

Some Stats on My Turn Check raises. This is more randomly distributed among the early positionsthan flop check/raises, because, by and large, I am only doing it with hands I want to get all in with or on a rare semi-bluff. So:

I check/raise 6.3% of turns.

20-ish% of which are from SB, BB and both early positions, the remaining 20% coming from mid pos and the CO.

I usually have a set, but can also have trips, two pair, an overpair, a combo-draw or air. But i shove combo-draws on the turn far less than I ought to; I only saw two this year. I actually bluff-check/raised the turn far more often than I did with combo draws. Al of those were on boards where I had called on the flop and the turn paired the board (and none of them worked )

Check/Raising the River

Well, these are usually hands I think are the nuts or a bluff, so I don't really see the need to illustrate with hand histories. I am rarely check/raising the river. I need the villain to have a good hand or a good spot to bluff and I need my hand to be effectively the nuts. So I only check/raise 2.6% of rivers.

There's probably a lot more that can be said here, but this is already really long.

Reacting to Check/Raises:

FOLD



In all seriousness, you should usually be folding. On occasion a villain will check/raise you when you have a powerful hand you can continue with, but, for the most part, you should fold. Basically, you need to have a hand or a read to continue.



This is a HEM screenshot of all $50 hands I played this year in which I was check/raised. As you can see, I am getting pounded in LP with my steal c-bets being check/raised, but making a profit in the earlier positions where I have, on average, stronger hands that play well against check/raises. So have a hand or have a read to continue, otherwise, just fold.

What is a hand you can continue with? Well, my win rate with an overpair where I have been check raised is 1717bb/100 (8.5ptbb/hand). My win rate with top pair top kicker or top pair good kicker is 1558bb/100 (7.75ptbb/hand). So these are good enough if you are paying attention.

_______________________________

As I said at the outset, please do not consider this authoritative. I posted the hands and the ways I use check/raises more as a starting off point for the discussion than as a "how-to."

first, looks nice, going to read it now.

Nice work.

thoid.... will read tomorrow.

Been looking forward to this one... the C/R has become a bigger part of my game over the last couple of months.

Thanks --- will get to reading it later tonight.

Well done on a last minute's notice.

Just to make explicit what you basically said. A c/r is for when you are early position. It is also for a raised pot pf, primarily with just one villain. Finally, it is actually not a sign of great strength, but of vulnerability in a 100BB game. Look to stay in the hand with TPGK or better if it happens to you.

Nice save mpethy!

Just a couple quick thoughts off the top of my head - In full ring, check/raise tends to be a very polarizing play. They tend to only be used with monsters or as bluffs (sometimes semi-bluffs). Which implies that you should be using them with a much wider range both to improve deception (Shania) and their value. Except you need to balance that with avoiding turning hands with good showdown value into bluffs and bloating the pot while putting yourself into precarious positions.

The vast majority of the time when people check/raise in micro FR their range is very polarized towards the top end. However, even though you know this, a lot of players in the micros are blissfully unaware. Set mining is still extremely profitable up to 50NL precisely because so few players can fold overpairs or big TPTK type hands even against a massive showing of strength. So be judicious about using check/raises as a bluff, especially in raised pots because a lot of players are not good enough to fold.

good post.

I like to rant a little. I think people at the micro's use check raises way to much. (except against SS, where I think you should be c/r a lot).

Fist off pay attention to stack sizes and commitment ranges. If you c/r bluffing you need a lot of room. Contrary you can c/r smaller stack sizes (or full stack sizes in multiway pots) and they will commit themselves.

C/R polarizes people range to the nuts/bluffs. If you are using a c/r you have to make sure it fits with how you think the villain will react versus the story you are telling. You can c/r for value against people who overvalue OP and TP too much and be really successful at it. But you don't want to c/r bluff these players as you have no FE. You can also c/r players that see monsters and rep a set. No matter what you decide to do make sure that you use a mix strategy and it fits your story.

For instance if you limp call to a good TAG reg who is in MP with say 77 and the flop comes K33, this is a terrible flop to c/r with since he probably is going to call you down with most of his hands (TT+). The reason is that your c/r polarized your range to bluff and and monsters, but only 33 fits the made hands that would make this move and that is just not that likely.

Now say the villain was a 5/3 nit and you limp call him (MP again) with 77 and the flop comes 733. This would be a good position to c/r since he can't fold out most of his raising range.

I personally only like to c/r wet boards HU against regs as it really puts them in tough spots. So many hands would c/r in those situations that you can actually get paid off on your made hands and have good FE with your semibluffs.

As far as reacting to C/R it really comes down to the villains range. If the story makes sense then I would not continue on with a really strong hand, but if it doesn't make sense then continuing with the middle of your range can be very profitable.

I like to float when i'm position aginst obvious c-bets, but OOP that's hard. That's where the check-raise comes in.

Say MP raises and you call from the BB with XX. Flop is T-6-2. You check to him and he makes the standard 2/3 pot c-bet. Then you raise him. Not a big raise, as you want as good odds as possible. I like a little more than a min-raise. Amazingly succesful.

Great post btw!

Looks good so far, right now I'm only having a problem with your example in 2).

I actually wouldn't mind using that line with say TT+ but with AK,AQ I don't really think it makes too much sense.
My problem is: say that flop is Q85 but T85? Villain is obv commited at this point so do we just c/f now? Or do we get it in knowing that we're likely drawing to 6 outs at best?
So FWIW I'd def prefer getting it in with those unpaired big card hands PF while I absolutely don't mind using the line you supposed with say 99+, possibly weaker depending on the shortstack...

Hope this makes sense!

This is pretty much the only hand I dont like. I think with such a big draw we shouldnt be looking to blow villan out the pot on the flop. I prefer c-betting and then check-raising turn. Very nice post though overall and major props considering you had little time to do any work on it.

Nice article, mpethy!

I think flop c/rai is still the most profitable way to play it.

Sure our draw is huge but imo taking down the dead money in the pot by making them fold flop is still more profitable than cbetting and going for a turn c/r, since both our FE and equity decrease a lot when they call flop and bet a brick turn (especially considering the 40bb effective stacks)

Didnt notice the stack size.

First of all, excellent post mpethybridge.

I have been thinking about this for a while now.
Say your playing with 100BB effective stacks and you raise from middle position with Aces and get a caller in CO (9.5BB pot). Flop comes 2 6 T You make a 7BB cbet after which you get check raised. Excluding the fact if you should continue or not, since its highly villain dependand. Are you more inclined to continue if you have the A for the back door draw. Or if you don't have the A villain could semi bluff check raise with Ax How would this situation change if you have position on the villain.

CMAR, all due respect, but I haven't found that to be true in general at 25nl in the last 4 months. Of the sets I've had on the flop and we got to the turn, 55% of them didn't make it to SD because the villain folded. When I've gone to SD, 20% of the time I was beat. Another 20% of the time, the villain had 2 pair or better (up to straights).

This indicates to me that many players now at 25nl are able to fold pairs.