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5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? 5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat?

02-09-2017 , 09:16 PM
Title sums it up. Also any other constructive criticism is always welcome. Thanks!

SB was 58/0/0 over 60ish hands

    IPoker, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    SB: $3.15 (63 bb)
    BB: $5.92 (118.4 bb)
    UTG+1: $5.27 (105.4 bb)
    UTG+2: $1.74 (34.8 bb)
    MP1: $2.66 (53.2 bb)
    MP2: $4.39 (87.8 bb)
    MP3: $4.91 (98.2 bb)
    CO: $4.80 (96 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $5.67 (113.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q T
    3 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, SB calls $0.18, 2 folds

    Flop: ($0.50) 4 J Q (2 players)
    SB bets $0.30, Hero calls $0.30

    Turn: ($1.10) T (2 players)
    Hero bets $0.75, SB raises to $2.65 and is all-in, Hero calls $1.90

    River: ($6.40) 7 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: $6.40 pot ($0.32 rake)
    Final Board: 4 J Q T 7
    SB showed 8 9 :: :: and won $6.08 ($2.93 net)
    Hero mucked Q T and lost (-$3.15 net)

    Last edited by Hammy18; 02-09-2017 at 09:35 PM.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-10-2017 , 07:51 AM
    I will fold here. You got your two pair, but you don't have a block. if a fish shove on the turn, I won't call unless I have the nuts.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-10-2017 , 08:36 AM
    Against a 60bb superfish, even though he seems passive, I'm not folding 2 pair. Against a range of AQ,KQ,QQ,QJ,QT,Q9,Q8,JT,JJ,TT,44,89,AK,K9 we're 36%, and then I've not included some wtf factor stuff like Q4s, J4s or something like As4s that now has a fd. You could even include AA/KK in this guy's range as well.

    Anyways, with 36% this is a call already. So unless you got info about him postflop only raising here with nutted hands you should call.

    Against a reg player this hand probably would almost never happen this way with the flop donk and the turn x/r so it's hard to judge, but I'd be inclined to fold thinking AK or a set is WAY more likely then anything else.
    EDIT: On second thought, only set a reg prob has here is 44 because he would almost certainly 3b QQ/JJ and not donk TT. Then again AK also seems unlikely because of 3b reasons.

    Last edited by Ron!n; 02-10-2017 at 08:50 AM.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-11-2017 , 02:30 AM
    I agree with Ron!n. Not folding 2 pair vs a fish with that stack. He will show up with complete rubbish a shockingly high amount of the time even if he is a mostly passive fish.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-11-2017 , 02:53 AM
    Thanks guys.

    So let me ask this. The call on the flop, good line to take or should we be raising against a fish like this?
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-11-2017 , 04:15 AM
    Flop call is good. QT isn't strong enough to raise and we don't want to fold out his garbage and we can re-evaluate on the turn. When the passive fish donks out on the flop I'm not super thrilled or anything but when we bink 2 pair on the turn we beat a lot hands the fish thinks he's playing for value(like the range Ron!in gave) and his garbage/spaz. I would play the hand the same.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-13-2017 , 04:54 PM
    Magical button donk on the turn
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-13-2017 , 11:39 PM
    well it depends,

    if you are scare for those "crazy moves" reraise the flop actually will slow down the action because he will call and then be aware from sets, over pairs and thats what you want here, and if he go aggro you will know that is something for sure.

    turn to me is a fold, and the reason is because your range is too wide and not so strong in this position, is really unlikely that the fish shove AQ on that board so your range is weak against his sets, and by far you are only beating Q4.

    most 50/x/x will be ultra aggresive preflop not postflop so be aware from those crazy hands since they tend to call a lot too postflop. A fish will try to make hands and then go ultra aggressive, that call is -EV just avoid it you will find a lot better spots to stack him.

    try to go 50-45% pot bet instead 60+ it will make the same effect and it will be easier to fold. (depends on the villain ofc) if it is a super loose caller then shoot higher (%pot bet) for value and lower control (% pot bet) to bluff, mix it or you will be exploitable. here looks like you are betting for value but is not one of the best hands of your range.

    if im not clear, sry for my english .
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-14-2017 , 12:26 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by oc33rF
    well it depends,

    if you are scare for those "crazy moves" reraise the flop actually will slow down the action because he will call and then be aware from sets, over pairs and thats what you want here, and if he go aggro you will know that is something for sure.

    turn to me is a fold, and the reason is because your range is too wide and not so strong in this position, is really unlikely that the fish shove AQ on that board so your range is weak against his sets, and by far you are only beating Q4.
    .
    1)First! SB was 58/0/0 over 60ish hands. Only thing his aware of is his fold call and raise button.

    2)Second! Turn is a fistpump call all day everyday 24/7 against this player who is so aware. If the hand history is acting up and in fact the fish check shoves on this draw heavy board then folding is the worst options.

    C'mon, these are the spots where most poker players earn their cheesburgers.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-14-2017 , 08:12 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Silentb0b
    1)First! SB was 58/0/0 over 60ish hands. Only thing his aware of is his fold call and raise button.

    2)Second! Turn is a fistpump call all day everyday 24/7 against this player who is so aware. If the hand history is acting up and in fact the fish check shoves on this draw heavy board then folding is the worst options.

    C'mon, these are the spots where most poker players earn their cheesburgers.
    Couldn't agree more!

    The fish was playing 58% of his hands and could be shoving with a high variety of them on the turn including any 2 spades, any pair with a straight draw, AQ, etc. Don't let this particular result influence the quality of the decision.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-14-2017 , 09:08 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kep
    Flop call is good. QT isn't strong enough to raise and we don't want to fold out his garbage and we can re-evaluate on the turn. When the passive fish donks out on the flop I'm not super thrilled or anything but when we bink 2 pair on the turn we beat a lot hands the fish thinks he's playing for value(like the range Ron!in gave) and his garbage/spaz. I would play the hand the same.
    OP has for example AQ, should he raise then?
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-14-2017 , 12:50 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Silentb0b
    1)First! SB was 58/0/0 over 60ish hands. Only thing his aware of is his fold call and raise button.

    2)Second! Turn is a fistpump call all day everyday 24/7 against this player who is so aware. If the hand history is acting up and in fact the fish check shoves on this draw heavy board then folding is the worst options.

    C'mon, these are the spots where most poker players earn their cheesburgers.
    60 hands is not a big sample but yeah enough to spot the monkey

    but fistpump call all day everyday. i don't feel like that i dont think is that easy.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-14-2017 , 01:55 PM
    1)Villain check shoves drawheavy turn
    2)Hero has to invest 1.9$ to win 6.4$
    3)Villain has VPIP 58 over the sample of 60 hands

    Hero gladly fist pump snaps even if villain has 20 hand sample.

    It's that easy!
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-15-2017 , 12:11 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Silentb0b
    Magical button donk on the turn
    OP?

    Did villain checkraise or what?
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-15-2017 , 03:32 PM
    Im surprised he didnt try to get 1 more street of value then shove the river
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-15-2017 , 03:44 PM
    Yeah, thats what around 60 vpip players usually contemplate, weird he shoved the turn.
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-17-2017 , 02:09 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ollieeeee
    OP?

    Did villain checkraise or what?
    Yes he check raised turn
    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote
    02-17-2017 , 08:47 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hammy18
    Yes he check raised turn
    Then it's a



    5NL: does this turn shove always mean I'm beat? Quote

          
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