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Old 07-24-2012, 02:36 PM   #1
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Question 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

I feel I could've extracted more value from villain, had I not shoved on the river.. But he was playing 59/0 and while making the decision I thought I'd miss on value if I 3-bet him 3x.. Which line of thinking is correct in this situation? It happened a few times where I really think I could've extracted more, e.g, the 2nd hand..

Hand 1: Villain playing 59/0

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP+1: $3.48
CO: $2.09
Hero (BTN): $2.58
SB: $5.09
BB: $3.00
UTG: $0.97
UTG+1: $2.00
MP: $1.53

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has T T

UTG calls $0.02, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.08, fold, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25, 3 players) T T 2
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.14, BB calls $0.14, fold

Turn: ($0.53, 2 players) 5
BB checks, Hero bets $0.24, BB calls $0.24

River: ($1.01, 2 players) J
BB bets $0.42, Hero raises to $2.12 and is all-in, fold

Spoiler:


Hand 2: Villain playing 23/13 .. I played this hand very very badly imo..

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $2.25
BB: $0.65
UTG: $8.63
UTG+1: $2.13
MP: $0.71
MP+1: $2.00
LP: $4.71
CO: $2.40
Hero (BTN): $2.69

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has J J

fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to $0.06, fold, Hero calls $0.06, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.15, 2 players) 7 7 A
LP checks, Hero bets $0.08, LP raises to $0.16, Hero calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.47, 2 players) J
LP bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22

River: ($0.91, 2 players) 2
LP bets $0.38, Hero raises to $2.25 and is all-in, fold

Spoiler:
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #2
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Hand 1 - More on the flop and more on the turn. Shoving the river is fine as played.

Hand 2 - I would 3-bet a LP opener with JJ here. What range do you put him on after he check min-raises you? Raise the turn. You want stacks in, so start building the pot. Leaving it until the river makes it even harder to get stacks in unless villain also has a good enough hand.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:06 PM   #3
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

First hand maybe bet a bit more ott to set up stacks...river play looks fine to me.

Second hand i fold to villain flop min raise as you're pretty much drawing to two outs at that point. As played i raise turn and shove river.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:04 PM   #4
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Hand 1: more on turn, river shove is good.

Hand 2: I think calling the raise OTF is marginal, raise turn, as played raise river a smaller amount, he is trying to shut down so he's not calling a shove.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:42 PM   #5
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Hand 1 just keep your SPR in mind, bet a bit bigger on flop and turn so the river shove isn't as awkward - as played your line is fine there's no way I'm not shoving river
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:52 AM   #6
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Grunch:

Hand 1 is fine. You could have bet a little more on the flop, even .16 would be a little better. You could bet more on the turn as well. Consider that there are very few draws on the board in regards to this. Also, a bigger flop bet usually means you can make a bigger turn bet, etc. Against someone playing 59/0, all-in on the river is fine.

Hand 2: I would reraise a late position preflop opener with this all day. On the turn I would raise. The bet size is small, and I think you're losing a lot of value just calling it, unless they have demonstrated a serious tendency to make crazy big three barrel river bluffs. Given the action, they are IMO very unlikely to hit a draw on the river to pay you off. Consider the overall selection of hands they might make a small raise like this with, and then size your reraise accordingly to what you think will be called. As played, the river shove is way too much. A smaller raise here is better. Again, bigger bets earlier would mean the river shove is more in proportion with the pot.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:51 AM   #7
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Quote:
Originally Posted by therightdeal View Post
Hand 1 - More on the flop and more on the turn. Shoving the river is fine as played.

Hand 2 - I would 3-bet a LP opener with JJ here. What range do you put him on after he check min-raises you? Raise the turn. You want stacks in, so start building the pot. Leaving it until the river makes it even harder to get stacks in unless villain also has a good enough hand.
I thought of calling JJ OOP with the intention of set mining or delayed C-betting if the flop goes c/c.. I think it's a clear mistake though, I've started to 3-bet LP openers lately.. I put him on a weak Axs/A8s+.. I called with intention of c/f ott if I did not get my set.. Which I did.. What are your thoughts on that? Usually I fold to a decent c/r here.. I did not give much credit to his min raise.. Should I have done otherwise?
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:56 AM   #8
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beer View Post
Hand 1: more on turn, river shove is good.

Hand 2: I think calling the raise OTF is marginal, raise turn, as played raise river a smaller amount, he is trying to shut down so he's not calling a shove.
Hmm, in hand 2, how do you know he's trying to 'shut down' ?
Does his river bet not show otherwise?
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:57 AM   #9
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFr1day View Post
Hand 1 just keep your SPR in mind, bet a bit bigger on flop and turn so the river shove isn't as awkward - as played your line is fine there's no way I'm not shoving river
Duly noted for next time ..
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:01 AM   #10
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheese View Post
Grunch:

Hand 1 is fine. You could have bet a little more on the flop, even .16 would be a little better. You could bet more on the turn as well. Consider that there are very few draws on the board in regards to this. Also, a bigger flop bet usually means you can make a bigger turn bet, etc. Against someone playing 59/0, all-in on the river is fine.

Hand 2: I would reraise a late position preflop opener with this all day. On the turn I would raise. The bet size is small, and I think you're losing a lot of value just calling it, unless they have demonstrated a serious tendency to make crazy big three barrel river bluffs. Given the action, they are IMO very unlikely to hit a draw on the river to pay you off. Consider the overall selection of hands they might make a small raise like this with, and then size your reraise accordingly to what you think will be called. As played, the river shove is way too much. A smaller raise here is better. Again, bigger bets earlier would mean the river shove is more in proportion with the pot.
Makes PERFECT sense now .. Thanks..
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:47 PM   #11
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AragornVII View Post
Hmm, in hand 2, how do you know he's trying to 'shut down' ?
Does his river bet not show otherwise?
He's making a small river bet. This is usually a thin value bet or a blocking bet, either way he doesn't want to be raised. Coupled with his turn sizing it seems unlikely he wants to play for stacks. You have to raise because you have a great hand but raise to say 90c and hope he calls with A-something.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:44 AM   #12
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Re: 2NL - Playing 'Four of a kind'

1 hand - standard.
2 hand - i'd 3bet LP opener, bet/call the minraise. i like your turn call - his bet is kinda telling you that he's weak. river raise should be smaller since he already told you on the turn that he wont play for the stack.
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