And OP knows the 4bet range based on ???

Probably the 4bet range stat in his HUD, although yeah it probably isn't accurate yet, but 3% overall is what I'd expect at these stakes in general. In these positions, and given it's a cold-4bet however I'd expect it to be way tighter.

FYP

I see. Can't find a stat like this in PT3. Is it there somewhere?

it's really not a simple spot

if we shove pre, we probably only get called by AA unless there's some crazzzzy meta game. The reason I say this, is because it's a cold 4bet, not just a 4bet, and therefore usually way stronger. That being said, if he's good he's not only cold 4betting AA here, so folding pre is sad too. But, preflop even if he has say AK or A5s he still have like 35% equity, so keep that in mind too.

Now say we call preflop. I think, by and large, a regulars range for going bet/bet/shove here is going to be AA and then some sort of hands that complete draws, and occasionally a bluff like AKo trying to get you to fold something like JJ-QQ.

To top it all off, you are OOP. So I think honestly, the best thing to do is lol/muck pre until you have the meta-game to be able to 5bet/call it off and feel good. You're just going to make a much bigger mistake if you don't fold and I doubtttt people are bluffing you enough/at all here to make folding bad.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

318,488,544 games 0.000 secs 63,697,708,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.571% 55.76% 01.81% 177582228 5775042.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 42.429% 40.62% 01.81% 129356232 5775042.00 { KK+, AKs, A5s-A2s, AKo

If folding pre is a mistake, it's only a small equity mistake. Your call preflop and check/shove getting it in with 2 outs against AA is a 95% equity mistake. Not that he has AA every time, but when he does it's a biggggg mistake.

this post still isn't getting enough love

@ op - isn't poker about cards/skill/position, you are conceding on a minimum of 2/3, and at least (x)% all three.

you asked about why i presented other options for flop play. It's because what you chose is the absolutely worst alternative = it is perhaps impossible to present a worse option. So i presented other options, all of which are superior simply by virtue of not being absolutely the worst play possible in that spot.

^^ yea & normally i would fold kk here tbh... but we had history + i gave him credit for being a good player & knowing that flatting AA is better than 4betting it as majority of my range cant even play to a 3bet muchless 4bet + he throws fish out the pot hence why i called pre to c/shove that particular flop... if i thought AA was a big part of his range i prob play diff but yea


& enigmatic i didnt ask why you posted other options to flop play, im asking you to explain the lines so i can apply them not only in this spot but if i get into a similar but yet different spot

its like when i did math in school & learnt how to copy n paste the formula for an equation but yet if the math question came in another form(more likely worded form) i had a very hard time trying to interpret that math equation and then apply the formula cause well i didnt understand it.... so was asking you to expound on the play is all

Thats because most of the regs here don't want to be known they can fold KK preflop and be exploited

Quality post from pokerarb as usual.

@ Exo, I help my nieces/nephews with their maths homework. I teach them how to deconstruct maths equations, how to apply them backwards, sideways etc. It really helps understanding the maths rather than rote learning.

well said end thread

I never fold kk preflop
either 5bet small/call shove, or flat, c/c to all in

no offense but your probably not that good

Uggh a horrible spot and even worse that it's KK as it feels so weak to fold it pre flop.
I would like to think I'd fold and not jam out of frustration, which is my most likely (incorrect) action.

If you had a much lower pp then shoving would at least have some image/metagame value if called (and probably has the same equity as your KK anyway), as well as picking up the pot now when he doesn't call. Shoving KK does nothing in that respect and calling just means you're gonna have to pray for a amazing flop to either avoid losing your stack or getting his.

I've just checked and in ~250K, spread out over 3/4 years, I've folded KK 5 times PF, even if they were mistakes and I was set to win 4 of those 5 pots it's hardly made huge impact on my win/loss rate.

cawwwwwl.