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Old 04-01-2010, 06:32 PM   #1
Rundeep
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10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

I see this play sooo many times that I don't know what to make of it. Example:


Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

BTN: $10.58
SB: $14.87
BB: $5.61
UTG: $11.60
UTG+1: $7.59
UTG+2: $8.86
MP1: $10.19
Hero (MP2): $20.77
CO: $4.22

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP2 with A J
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.30, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.05) A 2 2 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, UTG folds

Turn: ($2.05) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.05, Hero folds

Of course, he's not really betting for value here if he does have that two. Maybe he's just worried about a potential flush draw, but it feels like he's making a move.

I see this play ALL the time in Rush 10NL and I blame Full tilt Academy. they have a Power of Position Challenge where they have the player flat call in position, and then bet the turn if OOP player checks.

I notice this play a lot in situations where I have top pair med-worse kicker. Does he have me out-kicked? Is he making a move? Or does he have an even worse kicker and he interprets my check on the turn as proof that I was betting the flop w/ 2nd pair or a draw?

I guess the only lesson I could tell myself here is control your betsizing, so maybe bet less of the pot? The problem is that when I have top pair a good little-more-than-half bet size is usually good enough to take down the pot. What are your thoughts.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:36 PM   #2
kasik047
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Why are you not betting turn for value?
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #3
DaveBrown
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

on the river his position is really putting the pressure on you. It was also multiway. I think he has a big ace more than a two.

try making a blocking bet turn or as played b/f small (block) river.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:47 PM   #4
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

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Originally Posted by kasik047 View Post
Why are you not betting turn for value?
Fear. At it's simplest.
But to break it down: all AQ, AK have me beat as well as any 2x hands. That's a lot of different hands, and I'm out of position, and I feel like if I try to start controlling the pot at this stage by making a smaller bet on the turn it's pretty much just as sure a sign of weakness as checking, an invitation for the position player to reraise again, in which I end up folding and losing even more.
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:58 PM   #5
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

You could check flop and go from there. It's a WA/WB situation anyways and not many turn cards can ruin your day besides the unlikely str draws. As played if you are so certain opponents will have AK and AQ why even bother playing AJ then? Just open fold.

Bet flop, bet turn, reeval river. Not that many 2s in opponents ranges when flatting OTB. He could easily be VB any A here or a PP even.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:05 PM   #6
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

I should clarify that I'm playing Rush here so I don't have the benefit of reads. For those that say bet the flop and turn: what are your betsizes on these two streets? Do you barrel along on the river as well if he flat calls you the whole way?
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:08 PM   #7
apathy6907
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

why are you c/f'ing the turn instead of c/c'ing?
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:15 PM   #8
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

May not be the best line but i think you can just flat every street and make money in the hand in the op
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:31 PM   #9
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

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Originally Posted by apathy6907 View Post
why are you c/f'ing the turn instead of c/c'ing?
Guy potted the turn: that's a pretty damn strong move IMO. In fact, calling pot size bets w/ AJ and AQ is definitely a losing proposition to look at my hand history. Look up people all the way and it's rare they won't have you outkicked.
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:54 PM   #10
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

one of the 2 guys in the hand is a huge nit
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:25 PM   #11
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Bet the turn 1/2 pot - 3/4 pot. You have no reason to believe that he has AK or AQ at this point, so what are you afraid of on this turn card? It's essentially a blank so bet for value. He could just as easily be on 33-QQ here.

If he raises you on the turn - then you re-evaluate. Did he call ur 3-bet, call ur flop bet, then 3-bet you on the turn with 99? Now you can start to narrow his range to maybe AK or AQ, 99 etc. This is 10NL, so most people raise when they have what they think is the nuts. He probably notices the c-bet on flop, then check on river, so of course he's gonna raise. You are repping air, then he knows you have air because you folded. His new note on you "raises pre, c-bet flop, shuts down on turn - float all day"
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:58 PM   #12
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rundeep View Post
Guy potted the turn: that's a pretty damn strong move IMO. In fact, calling pot size bets w/ AJ and AQ is definitely a losing proposition to look at my hand history. Look up people all the way and it's rare they won't have you outkicked.
There is some pretty weak thinking in your posts. First, a PSB does NOT necessarily mean strength because it's Tilt and many players just hit the pot button out of laziness. Second, if you're raising AJ and becoming scared of AQ/AK on an A22r flop, you're playing very scared poker. You can't just focus on the hands he could have that beat you - you have to look at his entire range, which will include lots of hands you beat. Third, lots of players like to call CB's with a wide range just to float and test the raiser. Fourth, when you CB and then check the turn, you're showing weakness and giving him an invitation to take the pot away (assuming you're intending to fold to a bet and not check-calling to control the pot).
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:09 PM   #13
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

^^+1
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:57 PM   #14
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbreslin View Post
There is some pretty weak thinking in your posts. First, a PSB does NOT necessarily mean strength because it's Tilt and many players just hit the pot button out of laziness. Second, if you're raising AJ and becoming scared of AQ/AK on an A22r flop, you're playing very scared poker. You can't just focus on the hands he could have that beat you - you have to look at his entire range, which will include lots of hands you beat. Third, lots of players like to call CB's with a wide range just to float and test the raiser. Fourth, when you CB and then check the turn, you're showing weakness and giving him an invitation to take the pot away (assuming you're intending to fold to a bet and not check-calling to control the pot).
+2, plus AK probably 3bets pre, so I take that out of his range for the most part.
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Old 04-01-2010, 10:04 PM   #15
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Re: The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy64 View Post
May not be the best line but i think you can just flat every street and make money in the hand in the op
it's actually a really good line if you don't freak out when you have to c/c 3 streets with TPJK on a board that usually develops from meh over bad to worse...
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:17 AM   #16
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Bet/fold turn, and pretty much everyone here is right.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:13 AM   #17
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbreslin View Post
Third, lots of players like to call CB's with a wide range just to float and test the raiser. Fourth, when you CB and then check the turn, you're showing weakness and giving him an invitation to take the pot away (assuming you're intending to fold to a bet and not check-calling to control the pot).
^^

If I got a read/note on you that you fire one street and gave up on the turn frequently, I would float you with literally ATC and fire 100% of the turns that you check when you're OOP until you look me up.

Just sayin'. Look somebody up once in a while - you might be surprised at what they have.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:30 AM   #18
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

No need to ever pot control this turn imo. Just bet each street and fold to a raise barring some read that villain is a monkey.

Against a huge nit I could see checking the flop if I know my cbet is never getting called by worse.

To the OP, you gotta plan your hand. If you're gonna get scared when you flop TPGK with AJ and your cbet gets called - this happens to me like 1/2 the time yay value! - then just fold it like already suggested. You're burning money by playing the hand if you don't have the gonads to play more than 1 street on a very good board for your hand.
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:03 AM   #19
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

I might make this play against hero with 55-JJ and play it exactly the same way. Your c-bet was tiny, so I might have thought you were FOS.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:36 PM   #20
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

Thanks for the replies: I guess my problem here is I didn't really try to put my opp on a range beyond AQ and AK and yeah: something like 8s or 7s (or any low-medium pocket pair) falls into it. So do 9s for that matter, but I guess betting the turn would have been a good way to get more info on where I'm at.
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Old 04-03-2010, 08:12 PM   #21
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Re: 10NL The ole Flat Call In Position, Bet on the turn trick

I think a majority of the time you're way ahead vs a PP or total air, and your only disadvantages are that you're OOP and the pot is spiraling out of control. As played I like calling the turn and c/cing the river for value
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