Grunch Homework (from post part 2)

Think of this post less as feedback and more like a student turning in my homework. I was killing the 10NL 6-Max games at Absolute for 15BB/100 and have recently moved to PokerStars and am having trouble. Time to study up and adjust. Thanks a ton for this quality thread!!!

[X] Excellent Post

1) PFR way too low. You are limping and calling in the first three seats about half the time. (VPIP = 9 but PFR ranges 4-5) Need to open raise nearly all of these hands. "Pump it or Dump it" The trend continues into mid & late position where you are probably calling more than you are open-limping. In these seats, the "Pump it..." mantra still applies, but now you have to 3-bet more. It's tough for a nit to 3-bet anything that isn't AA or KK, but you gotta do it.

2) Your Flop aggression factor is pretty high, but your turn aggression factor drops off pretty steeply. You are probably getting floated a lot and give up on the turn to aggression. Need to fire the second barrel more frequently. The thing that helped me fire the second barrel more was easing off a bit on the size of the flop bet. Instead of making a pot sized bet on the flop then giving up to resistance, I've found a 2/3-3/4 sized flop bet leaves some room to fire a 1/2-3/4 sized bet on the turn. Obviously I can't see bet sizes here, but I know the 4BB pfr, psb, c/f line was killing me for a long time before I figured out how to start plugging that gaping hole in my game.

3) You never steal the blinds. It's fine in a cash game to let the blinds go to steals a lot as you end up playing OOP with medium strength hands. But when it's your turn OTB, you gotta steal them little doggies right back.

4) Based on your comments in the OP, your W$@SD is probably too high. This means you are folding the winners to frequently. Pair this up with your WTSD% being well below 25% and you may be folding too much. When you get to showdown, you got a lock on the pot. But you are probably winning smallish pots and loosing bigish pots. I fall into this trap a lot and it means that you are playing too predictably. Your opponents don't get involved with you unless they can beat you (you win the small pots that you hit and they miss) and take a big chunk of your stack when they do. You end up feeling a bit like piranha food.

5) I'm guessing your VP$IP is just too low. One range for VPIP that low is face cards and pairs down to 77. Are you ever playing suited connectors or suited one-gappers? Are you ever playing 22-55? That percentage pretty much says "I only ever play premium cards. If there isn't a face card on the flop, I'll always go away unless I have an overpair."

6) W$WSF is too low, but this is probably related to #2 above.

I realize I'm supposed to find 8, but I just don't see them. Perhaps that's why I'm still playing the micro's

ok - grunched - now it's time to go read the rest of what I know will be a great thread.

this is great... best post on pokertracker stats on 2+2 imo.

The last 3k hands i just played i was trying to incorporate the information in this post and also pokeys blindsteal post and my stats changed a whole lot. wondering about a couple of things

i was running 14/11/3,2 this session and had a 39,5% att to steal blinds. this looks nice and probably perfect for a tag in microstakes. maybe a little high steal attempt for nl10. but the other stats is not so standard for me.

Cbet% is 82... this is much higher than what i usually have. might this be because of all the blindstealing wich typically often requires a cbet?

Went to showdown is 21%... is this too low? could it be because im often going checkfold with top pair in bb in multiway pots? am i getting pushed off the best hand too much?

Won Money at Showdown is 61% ... this is very high. it used to be around 55%. of course it goes higher when i go to showdown less often... i am wondering what this really means right now

and also...

Won Money When Saw Flop is 40%. is this OK? might be a little high because i am tight preflop and thus doesnt need to improve so often?

really a personal style thing, imo. My cbet% is only around 65%.

This is a great post, but dummies like me need to be very careful not to over compensate.

I started stealing with such trash on the button, and then refused to give up whenever the blinds played back at me as I was soooo convinced they only did it because they were "on to me" - that the button became (for a short while) my worst losing position!

So all good things in moderation.

40% is fine

As you can see i've gone down hill a bit in the past couple of weeks. i'm just wondering if you can see anything here thats looks like i could work on. i know its only 25k hands but anything that seems outta sorts if you could point out that would be great.


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First thing that jumps out at me is positional awareness. IMO you are seeing the flop WAAAYYYY to much from the blinds and not enough in position.

ohh. this is 25nl on stars. so my bb and sb aren't raised all that often

Please don't be defensive, but I agree that your positional awareness is a leak.

I also don't think you are getting paid off well. At 25NL, you are averaging just over $5 on your full houses. This tells me you either game select very poorly or you might not be aggressive in other spots, creating doubt so villain's play back at you.

sorry if i sounded defensive cause this is exactly the type of feedback i was hoping for.

i will definetly have a look at my position and how much i call out of the blinds and such. but honestly i didn't think that was an issue of mine.

as for my game selection, i'm playing 24 tables so i basically just go on the waiting list for any table >$4 avg pot. i wouldn't think i need to be very selective at this level.

as for the low pay-offs on the full houses. well i tend to play a more passive preflop game. i only reraise when its absolutely nessecary. (ex. raise and a caller and i have AA i will reraise ex2. one raise and i have position i will generally flat call)

i thought my post-flop play was fine and i guess i should reveiw my fullhouses cause i am winning 80+% of the time.
thanks for the notes

were you 24-tabling over the first 15k hands?

yah well no 20 tabling till i knew i could resize properply to play 24

I'd be interested in hearing what people think the max winrate is when 24-tabling...seems like there would be so many profitable spots that would be just about impossible to notice when playing that many. I know when I play more than 18 my winrate takes a hit for sure...purely from missing pots that could be easily taken down.

open to any analysis/flaming... am also looking (though i know its not probable) for micro full ring stake at FTP if interested pm or check out my post in marketplace forum

I'm thinking you win a ton of little pots, but payoff too many big hands, thus the small ptbb/100 when playing 25NL.

Otherwise, the stats look better than fine. Those stats should actually pwn 25NL, so you must be losing value somewhere....

Yeah, his VPIP and PFR are almost the same as mine, but my winrate is about 10X higher. Clearly that isn't all that is important. My aggression factors by street are much higher, and my WTSD% is a bit lower.

My advice could be (probably is) absolute bollocks, but I'll chip in anyway!

At NL10 you play 16/12, at NL25 you 13.5/9 ... so you've tightened up.

But if you've tightened up why has your WWSF fallen from 36.7 to 34.3 and your WTSD fallen from 27.9 to 24.1?

Could you be giving NL25 players a little bit too much respect, and give up on hands that you would have played more aggressively at NL10?

Just my $0.02

What program is this made with, is this PT3? I would love to see my stats with this!

I think 24 tabling at micro stakes will cause you to stay at micro stakes forever. Its hard to get better when you're playing that many tables. If I were you I'd drop it down to 8-12 tables and make sure that every time you make a decision its well thought through.

I think something that helps a lot with that is instead of only reading posts, responding to them with well thought out lines. Even if its a simple decision to you writing it out trains your brain as opposed to saying, "Raise, LDO". I think doing this coincided with a huge jump in my game. Once your brain is trained to think through each decision more carefully you should slowly add more tables. If you ever feel yourself slipping and going to autopilot, just cut back tables again.

That being said, there are people who 24 table a mix of 400NL-1000NL for winrates of +4ptbb/100. However, these people are the definitely the exception to the rule as they are pretty sick poker players.

thx, its useful

Anyone tell me why I'm losing so much without sd? I know i have alot of leaks maybe you guys can point some out. I got PT 3 around hand 18500 and I've been working on not giving up on the flop quite so much since then.

I think people worry way too much about these graphs. The important point is you're winning.

I read something that Doyle Brunson once wrote (and silly me, I didn't save it so I have never been able to find it again) along the lines that he will call all-ins, even when he knows he is behind (and as long as he has some outs) because that is the price that he has to pay to make his aggressive style profitable. People know that if they tangle with him they are playing for stacks. So people fold to most of his aggressive bets before showdown.

Thus, if we could see Doyle Brunson's EV chart I'd expect to see a negative 'won on showdown' but a great 'total won'.

So what will a set-mining chart look like? Well (roughly speaking) seven or eight times out of nine you'll put money in the pot but drop out if you miss and your c-bet doesn't work. There's no showdown and you've lost money. But when you do hit, you want to play for stacks and get that sucker to showdown!

So for a set miner I'd expect to see a negative 'won without showdown' but a great 'total won'.

The point I am trying to make is, there is no rule that says that both the 'won on showdown' and the 'won without showdown' lines must be postive, otherwise you suck and have a massive leak.

You're making money. Be happy. Don't screw up your game just to get a pretty graph.

I think he says that in Super System.

What is considered a decent BB won per hand from the SB and BB? I'm at (0.18) from the BB and (0.12) from the SB and wondered how that compared to others.

I read the thread on reading and analyzing poker tracker stats but I'm still having a hard time converting the numbers into what I need to change in my play. I'm aware the sample size given is quite small but I'd like to know sooner than later lol. Can anyone help plz?