COTW - Playing Against Shortstackers
09-10-2013
, 09:49 AM
Hello 2+2. I'm Peter, and I'm a 20 year old student who has been playing online poker for about 2 years. You can read more about me and follow my progress in my PG&C thread.
This Concept of the Week article is about adjusting to stack sizes, particularly the 40bb shortstackers who infest the games on almost every site. It is focused on helping 100bb players play against these players. The main concepts are in 2 short videos, one covering preflop play and the other postflop play. In this post I have included additional calculations, comments, and exercises/examples.
Table of Contents (Click on the time to start the video at that section)
1. Preflop
1.1. Bet Sizing 1:04
1.2. Shoving 3:37
1.3. Multiple 4Bet Sizings 9:12
2. Postflop
2.1. Frequencies 0:22
2.2. How Many Streets 1:45
2.3. Planning On The Flop 4:53
1. Preflop
1.1. Bet Sizing
1.1.1. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO. BTN (100bb) calls. SB (40bb) 3bets to 10bb. If we were to 4bet, what size do we make it?
There are exceptions to the general rule of not putting in more than a third of effective stacks preflop. Two examples of that are when we want to give the opponent a chance to call with a weak hand or spew, or when the opponent folds too much to small reraises and a small reraise is immediately profitable.
1.1.2. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the BTN with AA. SB (40bb) 3bets to 9bb. What size does hero 4bet to?
1.1.3. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the BTN with 76o. SB (40bb) 3bets to 9bb. We look at the HUD and see that SB 3bets 20% and folds to 4bets 80% over a large sample. What do we do?
1.2. Shoving
1.2.1. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO and a 40bb shortstacker 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. We have a hand with 35% equity against the opponent's calling range and we shove. How often do we need the opponent to fold for our shove to be profitable?
1.2.2. Shortstacker (40bb) opens to 2bb in the CO. Hero (100bb) 3bets to 6bb in the BTN. Shortstacker 4bets to 13bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
From this example you can see how shortstackers must call a shove very often after putting in a large percentage of their stack.
1.2.3. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (50bb) 3bets to 8bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
1.2.4. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (60bb) 3bets to 8bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
From examples 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 notice how a small difference in stack size results in a significant increase in the amount of folds we need to be able to shove. Also notice that it is still reasonable to 4bet shove even as we get over 60bb deep.
1.3. Multiple 4Bet Sizings
1.3.1. Hero opens to 3bb in EP. Shortstacker (40bb) 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. What should hero do with QJs? 66? AKo? KQo?
1.3.2. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (40bb) 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. What should hero do with QJs? 66? AKo? KQo?
2. Postflop
2.1. Frequencies
2.1.1. 100bb deep. We open to 3bb. We bet 6bb into 7.5bb on the flop. We bet 16bb into 19.5bb on the turn. We shove 75bb into 51.5bb on the river with a polarized range. What percentage of the time does villain call? What percentage of villains range do we need to beat to be able to value bet? What percentage of the time do we bluff?
2.1.2. 40bb deep. We open to 3bb. We bet 4.5bb into 7.5bb on the flop. We bet 10bb into 16.5bb on the turn. We shove 22.5bb into 36.5bb on the river with a polarized range. What percentage of the time does villain call? What percentage of villains range do we need to beat to be able to value bet? What percentage of the time do we bluff?
As you can see from these two examples, when stacks are shallower, in general we will be betting smaller which means we will be value betting more hands and bluffing at a lower frequency.
2.2. How Many Streets
2.2.1. Assume in a heads up pot that the current pot size is P, and there are N streets of betting remaining and we want to bet an equal percentage of the pot on each street and get all in on the last street with final pot size S. What percentage of the pot do we bet?
2.2.2. Hero (100bb) opens to 2bb in the BTN with 77. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is K74r. How many streets do we want to bet to get stacks in?
2.2.3. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with T9s. SB (40bb) 3bets to 8.5bb. Hero calls. Flop is T97 two-tone and we do not have a flush draw. How many streets do we want to bet to get stacks in?
When we have a hand that is not strong enough to put all the money in with, we will usually want to bet the same size as the hands that do.
2.2.4. Hero (100bb) opens to 2bb in the BTN with TT. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is K74r. If we wish to bet for 1 street of value, what size do we bet?
2.2.5. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with J
T. SB (40bb) 3bets to 8.5bb. Hero calls. Flop is T
97
. If we wish to bet for 1 street of value, what size do we bet?
2.3. Planning On The Flop
When we are in position, most of the time the opponent will check to us, and if we want to go for 3 streets of value, the easiest way to do this is by betting all 3 streets.
2.3.1. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with JTs. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is AKQr and SB checks. What does hero do?
When we have a hand which we want to bet for 2 streets of value, we need to decide which street to check. When the board is dry or our hand is not vulnerable, we should consider checking the flop to allow the opponent a chance to lead out with a bluff on the turn. When the board is wet or our hand is vulnerable to the hands that will fold to a flop bet, we should consider checking the river. There are few cases where we will plan to bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river, but the most common situation is on a wet board against an opponent who bluffs too much. There are fewer situations where we will plan to bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river, but the most common situation is on a wet board against an opponent who bluffs too much.
2.3.2. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with KQo. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is Q84r. What does hero do?
2.3.3. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with KQo. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is QT7 two-tone. What does hero do?
2.3.4. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with T9s. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is 987 two-tone. What does hero do?
When we are out of position, we will usually not want to bet the flop for value unless we can bet all 3 streets. This is because once we check a hand that isn't strong enough to bet 3 streets, the opponent will be able to bet into us and we will have trouble calling with our medium-strength hand. Often when we are 100bb deep, we will choose to check the flop with our very strong hands with the intention of check/raising a street because it is difficult to bet 3 streets and get stacks in. However, when we are 40bb deep, we will usually not have this problem, so we should consider donk betting since it will keep the opponent's range wider than if we check/raised.
However, before donk betting we must consider if the line makes sense. We want to donk bet on boards where we hit very hard with a considerable number of hands and can create a polarized range. Usually when we open raise, we will have most sets and overpairs in our range, but when we are the cold caller, we will often not have some of those hands in our range. This makes it difficult to create a donk betting range on some boards, and it may be better to check/call our strong hands on those boards.
2.3.5. CO (100bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with QJo. Flop is T98r. What does hero do?
2.3.6. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with QJo. Flop is T98r. What does hero do?
2.3.7. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with JTs. Flop is AKQr. What does hero do?
When we want to go for 1 or 2 streets of value, it is very similar to being in position and we want to check the earlier streets unless the board is wet or our hand is vulnerable to the hands that fold to a bet.
2.3.8. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with KQo. Flop is Q84r. What does hero do?
However, if we want to bet 2 streets to go all in, we can consider betting flop and turn since we do not worry about being bluffed off our hand. This will occur most often on wet boards or with vulnerable hands since otherwise we will often still want to check to let the opponent bluff.
2.3.9. CO (40bb) opens to 2.5bb. Hero (100bb) 3bets to 7bb in SB with KQo. Flop is QT9 two-tone. What does hero do?
Deep stacked play left as an exercise for the reader. I'm exhausted fromwriting so much about playing against shortstackers. Who knew short stacking could be so difficult.
Thanks for reading
This Concept of the Week article is about adjusting to stack sizes, particularly the 40bb shortstackers who infest the games on almost every site. It is focused on helping 100bb players play against these players. The main concepts are in 2 short videos, one covering preflop play and the other postflop play. In this post I have included additional calculations, comments, and exercises/examples.
Table of Contents (Click on the time to start the video at that section)
1. Preflop
1.1. Bet Sizing 1:04
1.2. Shoving 3:37
1.3. Multiple 4Bet Sizings 9:12
2. Postflop
2.1. Frequencies 0:22
2.2. How Many Streets 1:45
2.3. Planning On The Flop 4:53
1. Preflop
1.1. Bet Sizing
1.1.1. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO. BTN (100bb) calls. SB (40bb) 3bets to 10bb. If we were to 4bet, what size do we make it?
Spoiler:
There are exceptions to the general rule of not putting in more than a third of effective stacks preflop. Two examples of that are when we want to give the opponent a chance to call with a weak hand or spew, or when the opponent folds too much to small reraises and a small reraise is immediately profitable.
1.1.2. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the BTN with AA. SB (40bb) 3bets to 9bb. What size does hero 4bet to?
Spoiler:
1.1.3. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the BTN with 76o. SB (40bb) 3bets to 9bb. We look at the HUD and see that SB 3bets 20% and folds to 4bets 80% over a large sample. What do we do?
Spoiler:
1.2. Shoving
1.2.1. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO and a 40bb shortstacker 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. We have a hand with 35% equity against the opponent's calling range and we shove. How often do we need the opponent to fold for our shove to be profitable?
Spoiler:
1.2.2. Shortstacker (40bb) opens to 2bb in the CO. Hero (100bb) 3bets to 6bb in the BTN. Shortstacker 4bets to 13bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
Spoiler:
From this example you can see how shortstackers must call a shove very often after putting in a large percentage of their stack.
1.2.3. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (50bb) 3bets to 8bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
Spoiler:
1.2.4. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (60bb) 3bets to 8bb. How often does shortstacker need to fold for us to shove a hand with 30% equity?
Spoiler:
From examples 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 notice how a small difference in stack size results in a significant increase in the amount of folds we need to be able to shove. Also notice that it is still reasonable to 4bet shove even as we get over 60bb deep.
1.3. Multiple 4Bet Sizings
1.3.1. Hero opens to 3bb in EP. Shortstacker (40bb) 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. What should hero do with QJs? 66? AKo? KQo?
Spoiler:
1.3.2. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO. Shortstacker (40bb) 3bets to 8bb in the BTN. What should hero do with QJs? 66? AKo? KQo?
Spoiler:
2. Postflop
2.1. Frequencies
2.1.1. 100bb deep. We open to 3bb. We bet 6bb into 7.5bb on the flop. We bet 16bb into 19.5bb on the turn. We shove 75bb into 51.5bb on the river with a polarized range. What percentage of the time does villain call? What percentage of villains range do we need to beat to be able to value bet? What percentage of the time do we bluff?
Spoiler:
2.1.2. 40bb deep. We open to 3bb. We bet 4.5bb into 7.5bb on the flop. We bet 10bb into 16.5bb on the turn. We shove 22.5bb into 36.5bb on the river with a polarized range. What percentage of the time does villain call? What percentage of villains range do we need to beat to be able to value bet? What percentage of the time do we bluff?
Spoiler:
As you can see from these two examples, when stacks are shallower, in general we will be betting smaller which means we will be value betting more hands and bluffing at a lower frequency.
2.2. How Many Streets
2.2.1. Assume in a heads up pot that the current pot size is P, and there are N streets of betting remaining and we want to bet an equal percentage of the pot on each street and get all in on the last street with final pot size S. What percentage of the pot do we bet?
Spoiler:
2.2.2. Hero (100bb) opens to 2bb in the BTN with 77. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is K74r. How many streets do we want to bet to get stacks in?
Spoiler:
2.2.3. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with T9s. SB (40bb) 3bets to 8.5bb. Hero calls. Flop is T97 two-tone and we do not have a flush draw. How many streets do we want to bet to get stacks in?
Spoiler:
When we have a hand that is not strong enough to put all the money in with, we will usually want to bet the same size as the hands that do.
2.2.4. Hero (100bb) opens to 2bb in the BTN with TT. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is K74r. If we wish to bet for 1 street of value, what size do we bet?
Spoiler:
2.2.5. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with J
T. SB (40bb) 3bets to 8.5bb. Hero calls. Flop is T97. If we wish to bet for 1 street of value, what size do we bet?Spoiler:
2.3. Planning On The Flop
When we are in position, most of the time the opponent will check to us, and if we want to go for 3 streets of value, the easiest way to do this is by betting all 3 streets.
2.3.1. Hero (100bb) opens to 3bb in the CO with JTs. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is AKQr and SB checks. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
When we have a hand which we want to bet for 2 streets of value, we need to decide which street to check. When the board is dry or our hand is not vulnerable, we should consider checking the flop to allow the opponent a chance to lead out with a bluff on the turn. When the board is wet or our hand is vulnerable to the hands that will fold to a flop bet, we should consider checking the river. There are few cases where we will plan to bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river, but the most common situation is on a wet board against an opponent who bluffs too much. There are fewer situations where we will plan to bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river, but the most common situation is on a wet board against an opponent who bluffs too much.
2.3.2. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with KQo. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is Q84r. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
2.3.3. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with KQo. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is QT7 two-tone. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
2.3.4. Hero opens to 3bb in the CO with T9s. SB (40bb) calls. Flop is 987 two-tone. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
When we are out of position, we will usually not want to bet the flop for value unless we can bet all 3 streets. This is because once we check a hand that isn't strong enough to bet 3 streets, the opponent will be able to bet into us and we will have trouble calling with our medium-strength hand. Often when we are 100bb deep, we will choose to check the flop with our very strong hands with the intention of check/raising a street because it is difficult to bet 3 streets and get stacks in. However, when we are 40bb deep, we will usually not have this problem, so we should consider donk betting since it will keep the opponent's range wider than if we check/raised.
However, before donk betting we must consider if the line makes sense. We want to donk bet on boards where we hit very hard with a considerable number of hands and can create a polarized range. Usually when we open raise, we will have most sets and overpairs in our range, but when we are the cold caller, we will often not have some of those hands in our range. This makes it difficult to create a donk betting range on some boards, and it may be better to check/call our strong hands on those boards.
2.3.5. CO (100bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with QJo. Flop is T98r. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
2.3.6. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with QJo. Flop is T98r. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
2.3.7. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with JTs. Flop is AKQr. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
When we want to go for 1 or 2 streets of value, it is very similar to being in position and we want to check the earlier streets unless the board is wet or our hand is vulnerable to the hands that fold to a bet.
2.3.8. CO (40bb) opens to 3bb. Hero (100bb) calls in SB with KQo. Flop is Q84r. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
However, if we want to bet 2 streets to go all in, we can consider betting flop and turn since we do not worry about being bluffed off our hand. This will occur most often on wet boards or with vulnerable hands since otherwise we will often still want to check to let the opponent bluff.
2.3.9. CO (40bb) opens to 2.5bb. Hero (100bb) 3bets to 7bb in SB with KQo. Flop is QT9 two-tone. What does hero do?
Spoiler:
Deep stacked play left as an exercise for the reader. I'm exhausted fromwriting so much about playing against shortstackers. Who knew short stacking could be so difficult.
Thanks for reading
Spoiler:
Last edited by mpethybridge; 09-10-2013 at 03:47 PM.
Reason: 2.3.7 CO stack changed to 40 as per OP
09-10-2013
, 10:15 AM
09-10-2013
, 12:36 PM
09-10-2013
, 01:47 PM
Nice work Peter! that's awesome that you would take the time to put all this together.
.. obv this will catch the eye of the ev gods and they will bless you with some run hotter than the sun imo
C.
.. obv this will catch the eye of the ev gods and they will bless you with some run hotter than the sun imo
C.
09-10-2013
, 03:14 PM
10-18-2013
, 10:53 AM
