Raise big, get called, hit top pair and go to valuetown. If you miss, check it down. Anything else against an uber-station is FPS

One of my big leaks was playing pocket pairs from the blinds against someone's late position raise. I used to call with any pair hoping to set mine. I eventually found out that was terrible so i started only flatting like 99+. After discussing it over with some people a lot better than me that grind mid stakes I realized that I need to learn to fold all pocket pairs unless I'm using them to 3bet light or for value. Obviously you can call with them if the pot is multiway or if you think the big blind is going to overcall.

Yeah if people start 3 betting ur light steals at 10-25-50 just find another table unless you have like 2 mega fish on your right. Not worth it with so much easy blind money out there.

????????

this is new for me

fold sc and pp in a limped pot pf onthe sb??

Also I 3 bet light not flat light vs. a habitual steal because you have little IO anyway, you are folding most dry flops/turns anyway if he doubles like he should (or you are c/r and risking more money w/ air) and its really hard to range a light stealer.

It's hard to make money with IO hands when nobody you're in the pot with has anything and you're OOP

I don't agree with venice's theory on they are stealing on an average 25% and their average vpip is 20% so they are really not stealing at all. Against some villians their stealing range is so huge and its almost consipicuous that you want to play 35% of your hands not for IO or anything but just direct value?

So i'd say 3-bet the bottom 10%, top 5% and then flat the middle range and play out a pot as ppl get really really whacky bvb and so is free monies if you can hold your breath.

Also important is to note some villians characteristics. Not all villians at all stakes balance their turn check back or flop check back range. If you are up against an habitual stealer know his c-betting / check back range, its free money on the turn and sometimes on an elaborate 3-street bluff on the river.

Nice post to open up discussion.

I want to add a piece of advice to the anonimous reader or the rookie beginner player @NL2/5/10 who just started out grinding and wants to benefit from this move.
I think that in general you have to be very careful and pick spots very well when raising SB limpers from BB. It won't work all day every day. Even the true fishes notice quickly when you are raising with ATC every single time to take down his 1/2 blind. It's a very situational play, it depends on the player you have to the right and you have to be very very aware that some players could exploit this very easily by just calling down with monsters, mix their play and 3bet once in a while, etc.
It's a very profitable play, but in the right spot against the right opponents. Don't transform this advantage into a leak. And look for balance imo.

You are right that it won't work every time. However, it doesn't have to.

Most villains when faced with a raise will fold their weak holdings. If they are faced with a raise every time, they start tightening up, which means the aggressor starts taking money uncontested. Usually he'll tighten up to the extent that he raises pf. Now he's easy to play.

However, let's suppose for one moment there is a villain that realizes that I am raising ATC and decides that he'll call ATC. If you put a pot in the middle and give me position on every hand with equal holdings, in the long run I'm going to win money. In fact, I'll probably win even more money that I would have if he had just folded in the first place.

I can't stress enough that the key to this is raising every single time. As soon as you start picking your spots, you become readable. When you become readable, people can play against you. You are most dangerous when nobody knows what you have. The fear of the unknown will have people handing you the pot.

Admittedly, folding to the SB occurs less and less frequently as you move down the micros. However, that is even a better reason to do this 100% of the time. You won't run into the same villains as frequently and they'll see this less often. Since they aren't noticing much anyway, they'll just attribute it to you have a hand that time.

I understand where you are coming from, but I've done this profitably since I was playing 10nl. It works if you do it all the time.

PS. At some point in your poker life, you'll need to play like a LAG. What scares some TAGs is that there is no math formula to show that unbridled aggression will win because of the measurable factors at the table. You can't pokerstove the situation. The only way to get over this concern is through repeated exposure to the concern until you are comfortable. Raising a SB call is a great way to start.

I know, it's ok. But take into account that if you encourage players at those levels to raise from BB vs SB every single time, sometimes they'll find themselves in really weird spots post flop. At least, to do this, they have to display a decent post flop game. Which, in general, is very unlikely at this levels. So, I agree, I'm not saying "Don't do it at all!", just be very careful when you do it, it's thin.

And we all learned that at the micros fat value makes up most of our profit.

What are IO hands?

There is a difference between the two. Pocket pairs will sometimes flop a very strong hand, and SCs will sometimes flop a very strong draw. Big difference.

With PPs you can call for pot odds only - let alone any small implied odds you might have. You may well not stack anyone, but you are getting a good price.

Playing a weak-ish draw (OESD) oop against a number of players who are unlikely to love their hands is much less appealing.

good spot for a 2 street bluff then?

I appreciate your insistency on this subject, very enlightening. This scenerio came up twice for me last night (raising SB open-limper). First time villian folded to CB, 2nd time villian folded after double-barrel. Have you found one needs to be very aggresive post-flop when doing this and is called, or is it best to slow down? I'm sure it's player-dependent, but one will probably not have too much history in this situation, perhaps basing off of villians WtSD stats would be best?

Very good post btw.

It is going to be villain specific. I treat it like a steal attempt because there's no real difference between being in a BB/SB situation and being in a BTN/BB situation, with you always having position. I think Split's approach in his first post is good. LOL and fold the first time if you have nothing and he's aggressive. The second time, whack him harder. I won't usually have a reliable WTSD for an unknown.

Keep in mind playing in position with equal ranges and equal skill is +EV. When you play ATC, there's no flop that can't hit you hard.

Biggest mistake people make is they think there is a formula here that is correct. there isn't. you have to mix up your plays, 3 betting light sometimes pre. calling light pre with intention of c/r any flop. calling light light to donk bet the flop. And folding to these steals, so it is believable that you might have a hand.

To often people just fall in love with oh i can 3 bet in this spot he button raised and he s teals 40% of the time. Yep its a good spot but if he is a good player he knows this and if your playing back at him regularly he is going to 4 bet you light and force you to fold anyway when you could have just orginally folded that BB and moved on.

The other mistake people make is they ahve no plan after they 3 bet, they think he will fold and then they get lost when he calls or 4 bets and spew money. They have a very diffcult time changing there read that he was stealing to a read that he actually has a hand.

That's what I'm trying to represent. Especially to new players who will tend to think this is automatic. Raise---> print.-

IO = implied odds

<3 fav bit about this post but I'm going to have to go back over this because I skimmed throu and there is some really nice ways of thinnking about Late position play ITT. Only time to use caution in the SB limping to your BB, when I think it will back fire is Vs the crazies and massive calling stations/freq CRing fools! Vs them I just check it and see a flop hoping i hit any piece of it to Vtown the crap out of them. Although 99% of the time I'm thinking raise that sh*t up.

i'm beginning to add this concept to my game... from one of Pokey's vids "So you want to be a Thief?" i've upped the ATS% and generally will either 3B or fold, and sometimes call but rarely... usually it's a 4x 3B followed by a good 1/2 pot lead into any flop and i do this with pp's, sc's AK+ and sometimes AQ... gonna go polish up the crowbar now...

Although I like the crowbar metaphor, I have a nice jingle in my head when it's folded to the small blind and he limps. I'm 99 percent sure I read it on here at some point, but it has always stuck with me. If they complete the small blind "That is your money." I just raise and take it with very little resistnace at 10 NL almost ALL of the time.

nice post.

realy enjoyed reading this ty

This isn't true, you're not trying to win stacks you're trying to win pots, if SCs flop the most equity pieces and if your opponent's aren't in love with their hands then you want to just aggressively bet, bet bet and claim those orphan pots. You should be raising them OOP with stuff you don't want to complete with and you should be completing with reasonable hands and then just stabbing like crazy when you're always first to act.

You obv. don't complete to play fit/fold.

Anti-Archive bump.

Thanks for the bump!! COTW deserves to remain a sticky.