Serious Discussion about Poker Bots, PokerTracker, HUDs, etc.

[Artsemis]

I'm posting in this forum as it tends to have a higher level of intelligence and discussion over many of the others.


First off, I'm a programmer so naturally this interests me and I'd like to have a good discussion on this.

I've been talking to a friend alot about bots and PT (we are both poker players and programmers). We're both against bots but he brought up a valid point, why it PT and HUDs considered ok by the community while bots are not?

Let me start with this...
PT and a HUD displays information to you about thousands of players in real time based on thousands of hands, something a human without these tools could not accomplish or calculate -- even if there were an associated face.

What's different with a bot? Automation? If that's the key... what if poker tracker took the exact same information it has and displays the move with the best expectation based on what it knows about the opponent and you simply click the associated button. Would that be ok?

I think it's just that PT has been widely accepted because it's been around... everyone has it. What if we had been playing since the start of online poker without PT and HUDs then today someone came out with this software? It would change everything and many online pros would be pretty upset I would think.

Don't assume anything with me being a programmer, but what if a programmer used his poker knowledge and coded his own bot? Does that make it different than a random fish getting a hold of a bot to play winning poker?

More to follow after responses...

[George Rice]

I've played online poker from the beginning and these tools didn't exist. I was never able to get the free version of PT to work and didn't want to put the effort in to learn how--too much work. I suppose my game could improve with such a tool, but I have no complaints with my online results so far without them. I suppose the heads-up tool is something else. Now that you made me aware of that I will probably avoid heads-up games unless I get it myself. Thanks for the heads up.

As for bots, no one has written software I'm aware of that can beat good players in multi-player tables. I think the real danger is allowing them to exist because they will get better over time. Also, if you beat the bad players too badly they will give up and stop playing. This is bad for the game as well as the sites. It also leaves less money for other players who don't use bots.

Generally speaking, PT, HUDs and bots are all bad for poker, which is supposed to be a people game. PT and the like will eventually kill the online game unless the sites frustrate them by changing software, player's screen names, etc. What new player is going to want to play against 'pros' who are using software to beat him out of his money?

Bots would kill online poker much faster. Once word of that got around it would kill the game in short order.

[nineinchal]

Let them use bots. Bots go by pot odds, not implied odds. Implied odds is where the real money is made.

[Artsemis]

Let them use bots. Bots go by pot odds, not implied odds. Implied odds is where the real money is made.

Wrong.

[bxb]

PT and HUDs are acceptable because the poker sites allow them. Bots are not allowed because poker sites do not allow them.

[Anjin]

To me, if you can't use it in a live casino game, using it online is cheating, pure and simple.

[Jeff76]

To me, if you can't use it in a live casino game, using it online is cheating, pure and simple.

Is the reverse true as well then? If you can't use something online then using it in a live casino is cheating?

[steamboatin]

The difference between bots and PT is, you still make the decision using PT. PT doesn't tell you what to play, it tells what has been played in the past.

A Bot makes the decision.

Ps for the poster, sorry I don't remember your screen name. I am pretty sure the OP is talking about Heads Up Display software (HUD) it displays the PT statsfor each player next to them on the table. I am not aware of any software for heads up games. The software may exist but usually is someone is discussing online poker they mean a heads up display.

[jjshabado]

I'm against PT and HUDs in principle, but I don't have a problem with people using them. It would be very hard to stop people from using them so you have to let everybody use them.

I actually believe online pocker has a limited lifetime because of Bots and such. I don't know if it will be 5 years or 15 years from now, but I can't imagine a scenario where bots won't get to the point where they can beat all but the best human players and sites won't be able to tell bot from real player. Once that happens no fish will play.

[Artsemis]

The difference between bots and PT is, you still make the decision using PT. PT doesn't tell you what to play, it tells what has been played in the past.

A Bot makes the decision.

That's definitely the difference between them, but it says little about the difference between the morality of them. If you have the information in front of you of thousands of hands parsed on thousands of players, what's the difference between you making a decision based off of that and a bot making the exact same decision based off the exact same information?

I'm glad to see more people are actually "against" PT rather than just saying PT is good, bots are bad, which is what I was saying until discussing it with my friend -- now it seems they should be hand-in-hand and categorized together. It seems the only reason PT is accepted is because it's widely used now.

[steamboatin]

People tilt, people make mistakes, the vast majority of poker players are losers regardless of the amount of information available.

Bots don't tilt, bots don't get tired, bots don't make mistakes.

If you are playing against a human, you have an equal opportunity to gain the same information, software and you have to develop the skills nessecery to win.

What if they could build an ultimate basketball bot, would it be fair for humans to be forced to compete against these perfect players that never get tired, never choke at the free throw line? I don't think so.

[Artsemis]

People tilt, people make mistakes, the vast majority of poker players are losers regardless of the amount of information available.

Bots don't tilt, bots don't get tired, bots don't make mistakes.

This is just more differences between people and bots. I could do the same thing about PT, no? For example, people don't memorize the VPIP, PFR%, how often someone steals the blind, etc. on thousands of players. If they did, why use PT at all?

I get what you're saying about bots and I agree, but the same applies to PT for very similar reasons.

If you are playing against a human, you have an equal opportunity to gain the same information, software and you have to develop the skills nessecery to win.

This is a big part of the problem... the software isn't equally available to everyone. For this to be true it would either need to be integrated into the software or at least listed on the web pages to download by the poker sites themselves if they allow it. I know many, many players (not just once a week players) that have no idea PT exists.

What if they could build an ultimate basketball bot, would it be fair for humans to be forced to compete against these perfect players that never get tired, never choke at the free throw line? I don't think so.

I agree. The relevant question though is would it be fair to have parsed calculations and data on every single play that coach makes in every situation over the past 30 years he's been coaching?

[steamboatin]

This is a big part of the problem... the software isn't equally available to everyone. For this to be true it would either need to be integrated into the software or at least listed on the web pages to download by the poker sites themselves if they allow it. I know many, many players (not just once a week players) that have no idea PT exists.

Ignorance is no excuse, because they haven't educated themselves about the available programs doesn't make the smarter shopper a cheat.

Lots of people have never bought a poker book, am I cheating because I own every poker book Dave has written?

The software is equally available, all they have to do is Google, show up here in the software forum and BOOM there it is!

PS. I am really enjoying our discussion.

[Artsemis]

Ignorance is no excuse, because they haven't educated themselves about the available programs doesn't make the smarter shopper a cheat.

So if a bot was a google search away and readily available, its ok? I understand your points but the problem is they aren't differentiating PT from bots which is what I'm looking for.

PS. I am really enjoying our discussion.

I am as well I love debates when they stay civil.

[steamboatin]

I thought I did that in my first reply.

The difference between bots and PT is, you still make the decision using PT. PT doesn't tell you what to play, it tells what has been played in the past.

A Bot makes the decision.