Chimpanzee Fight Question From El Diablo

[Chump Change]

I've only read 2/3 of the thread so far so my apologies if this has already been addressed, but I have a question.

Cliff notes version of the question at the end.

With the popularity of UFC et al, 1 in 5 people seem to be a jiu-jit-su fanboy these days (my apologies again if that sounds patronizing) and I can see how, logically and from just plain watching the fights, how this is the most effective UFC/MMA style.
It occured to me that this style, however, has some fatal flaws if used in a pure street setting, in that the JJS fighter leaves himself open to deadly and incapacitating attacks, groin strikes, eye gouges et cetera, which are not legal. I don't really know [censored] about MMA but was asking an old roommate about it. I believe (We weren't that close so I don't know the specifics) he was a black belt in kung fu (I KNOW black belt in something) and had extensively studied brazilian jiujitsu, and he verified that in a fight to the death the grappler would have his eyes gouged out or scrotum ripped off relatively easily.
So the question is, seeking more opinions, is this true?

Cliff notes: In a pure street fight, would a brazilian jiujitsu fighter be easily susceptible to maneuvers (eye gouges, groin strikes) that are illegal in UFC fights?

And btw, CHIMP FTW and it's really not even close. All the proud humans and MMA fanboys need to just swallow the pride. I venture TWO UFC champs would not beat the chimp.

[goodsamaritan]

Cliff notes: In a pure street fight, would a brazilian jiujitsu fighter be easily susceptible to maneuvers (eye gouges, groin strikes) that are illegal in UFC fights?

No, in order to effectively eye gouge someone, you need to be in a dominant position. A BJJ blackbelt would mount the Kung Fu blackbelt quickly and would be the one eyegouging him. The Kung Fu guy might have a chance of catching him with a quick eye gouge while they are standing, but it wouldn't be enough to finish the fight and the fight would not stay standign for very long.

[Chump Change]

The people who think the chimp is a virtual lock are way off. Although the monkey would have a considerable strength advantage against a human, strength is not everything. Anyone who has trained in brazilian jiu jitsu knows that superior positioning and using mechanical advantages can overcome huge strength differentials. It would definitely be possible for a human to kill a chimp with a properly applied rear naked choke. Chimps are very strong, but the mechanical advantage that a fighter would have if he could secure the choke would be enough to prevent the monkey from prying itself loose.

Moreover, all the stregth in the world will not prevent the chimp from being knocked out. I don't care if the chimp can bench press 2000 pounds, a well placed kick to the side of its head will put it to sleep. And the human would have a very big advantage in landing the first knockout blow because humans are a lot taller and the chimp would have absolutely no knowledge of how to properly protect itself or really have any idea of what is at stake.

I think people are grossly underestimating how much of an advantage the human's intelligence would be in a situation like this. A well trained fighter has spent his entire life training in how to knock someone out or break their bones as quickly as possible, whereas a chimp has absolutely no awareness whatsoever of any kind of technique.

Finally I submit to you the following video of a trained fighter who is 6'5", 350 lb, ~ 8% body fat, (weighlifting stats: 585lb bench (close grip), 500lb incline bench, 800lb squat, 420lb power cleans) losing a fight to 230 lb man:

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/s...ro-vs-bob-sapp

Now maybe the strength difference between those two fighters is less than the strength difference between a human and a chimp. But nevertheless, you still must take into account the HUGE difference of intelligence and skill between a chimp and a human.

In sum, anyone who thinks a chimp is the "dead nuts" against an elite MMA fighter is way way off. Substitue a gorilla for the chimp and I'll agree the gorilla is a lock.

I don't think i'm familiar with the rules of this fight. In the first round, when Sapp had Minotauro on his back twice, both times he let him up, or at least it seemed he did. Did the ref break it up, or... This is a pretty good fight so far.

Edit: Whoa, you can't be saved by the bell. If you're in a submissive position when the round ends you start there at the beginning of the next. Explain further if you get the chance.

[Chump Change]

No, in order to effectively eye gouge someone, you need to be in a dominant position. A BJJ blackbelt would mount the Kung Fu blackbelt quickly and would be the one eyegouging him. The Kung Fu guy might have a chance of catching him with a quick eye gouge while they are standing, but it wouldn't be enough to finish the fight and the fight would not stay standign for very long.

Well, when I lived with this guy, he had been studying JJU exclusively for years, so it's not like he was one of these biased kung fu guys refusing to admit the pros of JJU. I just don't put all my stock in one person's opinion.
It just seemed to me that when the guys are on the ground, both of their faces, necks and groins are susceptible, but obviously off limits in the organzied fight.

[goodsamaritan]

Edit: Whoa, you can't be saved by the bell. If you're in a submissive position when the round ends you start there at the beginning of the next. Explain further if you get the chance.

First of all, no matter what position you are in at the end of the round, the next round begins with both fighters on their feet. This is true in any MMA org I've heard of. Second, Nogueira was not in a "submissive" position at the end of the first. Sapp was in his guard, which is considered a neutral position even though one fighter is on his back.

[Chump Change]

First of all, no matter what position you are in at the end of the round, the next round begins with both fighters on their feet. This is true in any MMA org I've heard of. Second, Nogueira was not in a "submissive" position at the end of the first. Sapp was in his guard, which is considered a neutral position even though one fighter is on his back.

Did you watch the fight? Ok, i'm gonna rewind because I swore Sapp was on his back at the end of round 1, and the the next round started with him on his back.

Yeah, that's what i'm looking at. Am I missing something?


I'm excited to see how the the big man loses. Obvioulsy Minotaura can hold his own, but... 2/3 through.

EDIT: Nvm, that whole thing was one round. I'm watching this without sound btw. What was the deal with them breaking and going to corners mid-round?

[goodsamaritan]

Did you watch the fight? Ok, i'm gonna rewind because I swore Sapp was on his back at the end of round 1, and the the next round started with him on his back.

Yeah, that's what i'm looking at. Am I missing something?


I'm excited to see how the the big man loses. Obvioulsy Minotaura can hold his own, but... 2/3 through.

There were a couple of times that they stopped the fight in the middle of a round for a doctor check. In those cases they restart the fighters where they left off.

[Chump Change]

Whoa, that was nuts. Sapp basically ran out of gas and then Minotauro hit him with the arm bar. You could see the big man literally gasping for air towards the end. A bit anticlimactic, but you could see it coming. Little man had to withstand quite a few hammers to the face.

[seano34]

Lol at the kung fu dude on here.

Kung fu was proven to be absolutely ineffectual way back in UFC 1 and in every other ufc since when one of them cropped up.

The old "my techniques are more deadly" argument is a tired old argument used by kung fu peeps upset that their best fighters get raped by any z-level mma fighter.

As someone mentioned they apply a peverse logic that somehow the more athletic, skilled pro mma fighter wouldnt be able to gouge and grab as well.

[2/325Falcon]

Some chimp info from Wiki.

Severly Mauled Genitals
Druken Baby Eaters

Good luck with the rear naked choke plan.

[goodsamaritan]

Some chimp info from Wiki.

Severly Mauled Genitals

So two chimps catching a 61 year old man off guard is good evidence for how one chimp would fare against the best fighter in the world?

[kdotsky]

Cliff notes: In a pure street fight, would a brazilian jiujitsu fighter be easily susceptible to maneuvers (eye gouges, groin strikes) that are illegal in UFC fights?

No. If you had to learn one martial art, brazilian jiujitsu would be the most practical. What people don't understand is the gigantic difference between a trained and untrained person. In a street fight, a jiujitsu expert would submit the other (untrained) person with ridiculous ease. Hell they could just let the guy tackle them and they'd fall right into a guillotine choke. They know how to use their body and leverage to prevent the opponent from being in a dominant position where it's easier to do attacks like gouges. For example, on their back they stay in "the guard", where they are essentially using their entire body against the opponent's upper body.

You have to also realize there's a difference between pain and real danger. If one of these guys is choking you and you try to start hitting him in the balls (which might not even be possible in the position you're in), they know they're not in any real danger (even though it's painful), and that as long as they don't let go you'll be asleep in a few seconds.

I'd recommend watching/downloading UFC 1-4. There were hardly any rules at this time (no gouging/fishhooking, but groin strikes were aloud). The grappling guys aren't the most entertaining fights, but you see how they defeat people well trained in other martial arts with relative ease.

[kdotsky]

Whoa, that was nuts. Sapp basically ran out of gas and then Minotauro hit him with the arm bar. You could see the big man literally gasping for air towards the end. A bit anticlimactic, but you could see it coming. Little man had to withstand quite a few hammers to the face.

Here's another example of technique vs. size/strength. There's probably better examples, considering the sumo wrestler sucks.

[John Kilduff]

Cliff notes: In a pure street fight, would a brazilian jiujitsu fighter be easily susceptible to maneuvers (eye gouges, groin strikes) that are illegal in UFC fights?

Anyone who limits themselves to rigid stylistic techniques in a street fight is giving up some advantage to an opponent who doesn't. That said there is no reason a Brazilian jujitsu practitioner couldn't also employ some of the techniques you mentioned in a street fight.

[John Kilduff]

No. If you had to learn one martial art, brazilian jiujitsu would be the most practical. What people don't understand is the gigantic difference between a trained and untrained person. In a street fight, a jiujitsu expert would submit the other (untrained) person with ridiculous ease. Hell they could just let the guy tackle them and they'd fall right into a guillotine choke. They know how to use their body and leverage to prevent the opponent from being in a dominant position where it's easier to do attacks like gouges. For example, on their back they stay in "the guard", where they are essentially using their entire body against the opponent's upper body.

You have to also realize there's a difference between pain and real danger. If one of these guys is choking you and you try to start hitting him in the balls (which might not even be possible in the position you're in), they know they're not in any real danger (even though it's painful), and that as long as they don't let go you'll be asleep in a few seconds.

I'd recommend watching/downloading UFC 1-4. There were hardly any rules at this time (no gouging/fishhooking, but groin strikes were aloud). The grappling guys aren't the most entertaining fights, but you see how they defeat people well trained in other martial arts with relative ease.

I'd like to add a few things:

1) versus a single opponent, the grappling styles (augmented with some basic knowledge of opportune striking) are probably the most effective and best to learn. But against against multiple simultaneous opponents (like if you are facing a 3 versus 1 situation in a bar or alley), the value of grappling goes down and the value of striking from a standing position goes up. This is because once you are down it is nearly impossible to grapple efectively against multiple opponents and you will probably get kicked by someone still standing). So, primarily grappling is best versus one, but versus many, you had better be able to land some disabling blows while still remaining standing. So in that case I would like your chances better with boxing/tae kwon do/karate etc.

2) Six month's boxing > six month's karate (or any similar style). For a karateka to be favored to beat a boxer (all else being equal) he needs to be more advanced than just six month's training. It takes considerably longer to get really good at karate. Hand techniques in boxing are very flexible, fast and powerful, and range is used well in boxing. Yes kicking has greater pure range but it exposes you more, weakens your stability, and slows you down compared to boxing hand techniques. Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was based on primarily boxing, Wing Chun Kung Fu hand techniques, and the concept of range as in fencing. By the way I would have liked to see Bruce Lee in his prime versus some of these UFC or MMA-type guys in his weight class. I think with his speed and coordination and fantastic use of range, a top Brazilian jujitsu practitioner would have had his hands full and could have had a lot of trouble closing to grappling. So while I do generally favor grappling it isn't necessarily the be-all and end-all of martial arts.

3) Anyone who likes this stuff and hasn't seen Bruce Lee in Enter The Dragon, you're missing out;-) Never mind his other movies, this is the one to watch. Shoot right down to Blockbuster and rent it for a buck or two, you'll be glad you did. It is really spectacular, and as a grappler myself I would rather much rather face another grappler than a Bruce Lee;-) By the way, if any of you guys like Chuck Norris or Van Damme movies, and haven't seen Bruce Leee in Enter The Dragon, all I will say is that Bruce Lee makes those two stars look, well, kind of slow and klutzy. Also, Bolo is pretty damn impressive too. Either one would scare me more than Gracie or Norris, even if that doesn't seem to make much sense.