I had no idea what to do here but I didn't really like shoving. I mean I do, I have the nuts. But. Villain (we pretty sure is fish and spewing) is only leaving 50bbs behind and the pot will be 100bbs OTT. Shoving is an easy out. Anyone have any input on why we might be calling down vs regs/competent players? What is our thought process going through turn and river cards? Are we okay turning hearts and calling down? Is this a possible leak? Vs regs and competent players, what is calling vs this shove? Unless you are this clown and have the spoiler...

Yatahay Network - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 169.9 BB
SB: 131.1 BB
BB: 204.7 BB
UTG: 95.1 BB
MP: 144.8 BB
CO: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q Q

UTG raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 7.5 BB, fold, fold, UTG raises to 24 BB, Hero calls 16.5 BB

Flop: (49.5 BB, 2 players) 7 Q 8
UTG bets 23.2 BB,

Shoving is a punt, especially against a rec who you think is spewy. If you're afraid of the flush getting there then you don't understand how these low SPR spots work. There is no runout where you ever have to fold, and you will be getting it in with extremely high EV against a turn or river shove on the vast majority of runouts.

Also, A7o should obviously never get to the flop for UTG, but he played it completely fine postflop. This is actually the main solver line for A7s with no BDFD, and folding to your shove would've been a 7bb punt at equilibrium. The fact that you're calling him a "clown" is probably a sign of some mindset leaks. Mentally and technically strong players don't talk about their opponents like that, especially when they don't even know what's actually right or wrong.

This player is a mega fun player. Aka clown, he wasn’t folding. 100%

Was looking for a discussion about how to play the hand vs regs

Not disagreeing with you, but in spots like this I'm more afraid of something scary coming for villain where they won't put more money in on later streets more than being afraid of a draw completing against me.

Getting defensive at what I said and doubling down is also a sign of a mindset leak. You don't seem interested in actually learning. If you want to know the GTO way to play this hand then it's to call flop and never fold any runout, like I said.

This is not a complicated spot to study. You're IP with the nuts at a low SPR facing a big cbet. You made a clear mistake in theory and it's an even bigger mistake against a spewy rec. Brushing it off by saying "he wasn't folding. 100%" is a pretty terrible attitude to have.

This is a valid point in a lot of spots, but not so much when you're IP at SPR 0.5. The rare times where he finds a fold with any sort of made hand on future streets will be more than made up for by the times he has air on the flop and barrels OTT or improves to a bluffcatcher OTT.

Yeah I was wondering what I should be thinking if I call flop and turn comes heart or A or K, or some crazy runout like JT. I think it's pretty clear we don't have to fold this hand ever and they're gonna have to hit their hand to win.


Me - Wumpy - Thank you for your responses. FWIW the clown is a 70/70 vpip player with 80 WTSD and 13 WSD

They don't classify players? Clown, fun, rec it's all the same.

Call instead of raising, to keep your opponents' bluffs in. Here your raise caps your calling range (i.e excludes the nuts from it) whilst folding out very little equity. In other words, you're weakening the 'call' branch of your strategy by capping it for no good reason, whilst giving an easy way out to your opponents' bluffs.

This is what I was looking for, thank you

You think we care about capping our calling range vs a fish?

The reason calling is better than raising is because we keep all the fishes low equity holdings in the hand and can easily get stacks OTT/OTR, that's the only reason. Talking about weakening the call branch of our strategy vs a guy that has no concept of strategy is missing the forest the trees.

Can we leave the fish out of this?

I thought I made it pretty clear that this player is stacking here and was the reason we shoved. The post was about what am I getting into vs regs/competent players... Not only GTO, not only vs fish. I was hoping to get a discussion about population and 4 bet pots in general

It's a probability question not a binary question. If you have data on 4BP fish ranges and their Donk/Calling ranges over a good sample than okay, otherwise you are just guessing like everyone else.

As for Flop donking range composition, I have 3bps and they are 39 weak for this sizing and Fold 51% of the time vs a raise.

If you think a fish is never folding here, I don't think you've paid much attention.

Agreed, OP has a sample of 1 and acts like the fish will never fold to a shove.

I've had one donk pot a turn for 60BB and fold to a jam with 4BB left behind.

The replies

versus a reg a solver always calls. 2bb mistake to jam OTF.

Excluding QQ from your calling range will cost a bunch of equity, so I guess the question is how do you play your middling pockets when the turn is an ace or a king?

Your reasoning is great vs a regular, no arguments here.

Not relevant vs a fish which is who the guy actually is.

Folding seems obvious