I'm reviewing a few hands like that where villain hits 2p on turn and I'm trying to think how to make his call unprofitable in these situations?
V is a fish like 90/5/0.5 af, so he calls with crap but he didn't seem to be a complete calling station too much (had he not hit the 2p, I felt he would have folded on river from what i've seen on other hands)
I want to know the "answer" to this too - my guesses:
1)bigger pf raise, although i suppose it's about the
2)flop bet? cos that's where you could have priced him out specifically of drawing the second pair. however, betting big on the flop when you have big hands sounds like the gayest and most obvious way of giving away your hand strength on every flop. changing from 1.01 to 1.1 is a pretty small change tho so maybe the answer is there, but are you really going to calculate the numbers to that precison level every flop? maybe you are but i think the correct answers are numbers 3 and 4:
3) "don't go broke with only one pair" cos then he won't have proper odds on flop.... (river bet smaller, maybe much smaller - you actually said you don't think he's calling that bet with one pair - thus you've turned your kk into a bluff! that has to be the main problem in this hand if you were right in saying he wouldn't call without beating you. would he have called the turn bet even?), and 4) sit with fish to your right not left then you see what he's doing before you chuck all your dollar in!
I want to know the "answer" to this too - my guesses:
1)bigger pf raise, although i suppose it's about the
2)flop bet? cos that's where you could have priced him out specifically of drawing the second pair. however, betting big on the flop when you have big hands sounds like the gayest and most obvious way of giving away your hand strength on every flop. changing from 1.01 to 1.1 is a pretty small change tho so maybe the answer is there, but are you really going to calculate the numbers to that precison level every flop? maybe you are but i think the correct answers are numbers 3 and 4:
3) "don't go broke with only one pair" cos then he won't have proper odds on flop.... (river bet smaller, maybe much smaller - you actually said you don't think he's calling that bet with one pair - thus you've turned your kk into a bluff! that has to be the main problem in this hand if you were right in saying he wouldn't call without beating you. would he have called the turn bet even?), and 4) sit with fish to your right not left then you see what he's doing before you chuck all your dollar in!
but i've only got like 1 post so wtfdik.
1) I believe 4.5 bb is already big enough (i generally raise 3bb + 1bb per limper)
2) a fair assumption is that he will call with mainly every crap on the flop bet, like many fishes. So making it almost pot-bet would probably help
3) I think against a normal fish, it's ok to go broke w one pair on this kind of flop, I've seen so many of them call with TPLK (but probably the 3/4 bet on river is a little too much, but w.o. hindsight, a 90 VPIP fish definitely would do that)
The fact is that I got quite unlucky against that fish over 30-40 hands ...
same fish, same crap, probably tilting a bit in that hand (lower on turn and river?)
what are his foldvcbet otf and ott and wtsd?
vs. a 90 vpip fish both hands look actually fine
on hand 1 he is prolly not folding Tx (sizing is ok=
on hand 2 hands like 56,97,87 hit otr. i would bet slightly less to get a call from 9x, but both hands are worth 3 streets of value
what are his foldvcbet otf and ott and wtsd?
vs. a 90 vpip fish both hands look actually fine
on hand 1 he is prolly not folding Tx (sizing is ok=
on hand 2 hands like 56,97,87 hit otr. i would bet slightly less to get a call from 9x, but both hands are worth 3 streets of value
only had 50-ish hands on him so not very relevant at that time but 0.6 af
tl;dr: summary: you either misread the fish (mine and your original thoughts), or got unlucky:
ok so consensus is he will call these rivers beat by overpair. i'm still not sure this is true, this player is one with no aggression who just tries to hit hands. unless he really is the most stupid form of fish, he is not calling river beat here. if he was, i reckon he would not be requiring a thread on 2p2.
"it's more about the player than the cards" - sorry for reciting old poker soundbites lol. do we have any hands on this player where he does actually call what he probably considers to be the MASSIVE BET on the end (as he is fish) with less than 2p?
based on these two hands and your original post where you say you think he's not calling beat, if we keep this strategy it's neutralEV (reverse implied odds minus chance he does stack off with tp sometimes) but still that is not good enough reason to keep stacking off lighter than his calling range. stack off light when we have REASON TO THINK they're stacking off light. yes 1p is still stacking off light against most playaz
cmon guys where's all my baluganits at? does turn call tell us he hit? cos maybe it should, unfortunately. he's not going to raise he has no agg, so with some fish here call could = raise! we can't tell just from af and vpip how he plays each street, need reads. we need to be paying more attention to our fish's tendencies! they deserve the most attention, not the regtoourleft's 3bet ranges, poker mind should be on how fishy our fish really is!
apparant standardness of situation is what costs us munny when we are playing against nonstandard players and is absolutely the opposite of what our thinking needs to be. once we have a good idea of their river calling range it becomes more standard. fear the passive player who suddenly becomes willing to stack off - THIS is standard.... food for thizzort? food for me being wrong again?!
Two Plus Two
K
(3 players)
(2 players)
Linear Mode
