Any other thoughts on this Vs villians who can fold they will rarely turn up with KJ,KT,KQo and other suited kings they might of opened, sometimes they will even fold KQs and AKo even(fullring nits)

I would rather 3 bet them so I have iniative in the hand plus position plus hopefully better post flop skills then my villan. the only thing I don't have going is card streghen.

What I like to think of is say villan has TT he raises pre we flat with 87s OTB flop is Q J 7 rainbow, he cbets we most likely have to fold. where if we 3bet he calls our hand is the same but we win the pot with our flop cBet.

Or even flop is A 9 2 rainbow he wins or we win who ever has initative whens this pot. There are flops where we can maybe take it away from him as well say the A 7 3 flop, we can float alot of the time but if he double barrels we have to fold.


Take a look at what you win or lose when you cold call in your hold em manager.

the range he opens UTG is 100% value.

The range he 3bets OTB is polarised, the range he flats is middleing.

We'll definitely discuss the merits of flatting vs. 3-betting SC from the button once we get around to that position. There are times to 3-bet a hand like 78s and times to flat it. Again, if you want to jump ahead, try to come up with a situation where one is better than the other and vice versa.

In position ,I'd 3b 78ss when theres a squezze/3b happy player still to act,
with passive player its a call in position.

But i wonder ,from the big blind is there any situation when its better to 3b? Other maybe than to balance.

Not trying to jump ahead, just trying to respond to the post.

Actually would like to go back to the begining and find out more what should be seen by looking at the stats and what people would do to try to expolit this player based on them.

and to add ot the current discussion, I agree that the ranges and style of play you suggest from EP are good. I don't like the "formula" style poker this suggests. i.e. you do this you will win you don't you have leaks. I think its a great foundation for someone to start and profitable but think by someone as respected as you saying it leads to people just mindlessly doing it and making money. Then when they move up they wonder why they no longer make money and have never learned how to think about poker. Just that this formula should work.

Edit: i am not saying you don't explain the why, you do very well, more my point is people just see your ranges and go with it and don't question you.

^^ what do you mean balance. what sort of balance are you wanting to create by 3betting 78s?, so that after 1millionmillion hands they know you don't have a range consisting of 100% 78s when you flat from the BB (What?)

if you want to widen your 3betting range form the BB either widen your value range or include more bluffs. bluffs which are just below your calling range is alot easier such as 86s or w/e. where you don't want to fold and you don't want to call.

A time to 3-bet a hand like 78s OOP are when you have a specific read that some player opens too much from a certain position and then folds to too many 3-bets. We would do it with 78s because IF called:

A) We can c-bet high card board
B) We have equity of mid-card connected boards

So the point of it is to make profit preflop, not to try to hit postflop. In the few times that we are called preflop, we'll often have equity postflop on a lot of boards.

As martin9_90 said: It's not about balance.

That does make sence.

Cool thread i ll definitly follow it.

I don't fully understand why we would just go on lock down UTG mode here. I understand it if we are folding JJ- and Aq-, but would it be more optimal to open up your 4 betting range a bit?

I talked with a number of people about the general idea of dealing with players who get out of line with 3-betting. Among them was BoyWonder who mentioned that most inexperienced players react to being 3-bet too much by starting to 4-bet wider whereas the adjustment they need to do first is to tighten up.

He said he loves it when someone starts responding to his 3-bets by 4-betting him wider because he then owns them (we can get into the how and why of that later).

lolat using boywonder as a person to talk poker with, sreiosuly...you know he is terrible right?

Bland and boring = mind-blowing.

I think a lot of the pre-flop mistakes made are a leak because of poor note-taking and reads and not adjusting your game-plan to go with your reads. If you do those two things well, theoretically, you should be quite loose. I hope this idea will be addressed once "fold pre" is drilled into uNL's head. Maybe a topic will be opened on when folding pre is bad and it's just sacrificing equity that you could use to exploit your opponent.

I think this topic came up in one of the threads he posted which turn into mini-wells.