I think this thread will be pretty sweet. Nice work Verneer.

Good start to your series

Huds are mainly useful for quickly identifying the loose passives, aggrotards and all other fish varieties imo. A stat of 45/12 or 80/20 or 30/0 and such after 15 hands will be pretty much spot on indicative of what kind of player this is. This guy is no tag. It becomes more tricky when you start trying to nail down regs with few hands. I ran probably about as cold as I ever have last night over 300 hands on each table and was like 17/14 average and only 3b about 4%. I am nowhere near that nitty. I was also not meshing well with flops so I looked a bit weak post flop at times.

A lot of good points here. After 3-4 orbits we can discern the 80/65 player from the 40/0 player from someone who seems like he has a preflop style which might be alright. That said, HUDs become really useful vs. regulars once you have 1,000+ hands on them - especially if you use positional stats on your HUD:



If you have a few thousand hands on a reg and look at him positionally (example below) in your HEM, you can learn an insane amount about their ranges and thus develop a good counter-strategy vs. this type of player.

Example:



What do these numbers tell you about this player's ranges?

guys dont tard up the thread with twenty bad jokes for every verneer post plz

That hes positionally aware. Likes to put pressure on when in position with a wider range. Oop his range is stronger and more aggressive.

Well thats what i took from it.

For people asking for sweat sessions, use this thread, don't post about it in here.

First thing that really jumps out at me is BTN 3bet % is basically his UTG range. So any hand i would 3bet his UTG range with i should be 4 betting. Should also be 3 betting a huge range against his btn and CO raises when i am in the blinds as he folds a ton an probably c/f some more on the flop.

He also defends his BB pretty aggressively 3 betting. So some room to 4 bet bluff him there.

Hey verneer, sweet post. One minor disagreement about your stats post. In some cases we can get reliable reads after less than 100 hands. This has already been discussed to some degree. But in general, it seems that it would be much less likely that 'PkrPlayer' is going to evolve into some sLAG after those first 50-100 hands.

Sure, I guess your message is that we might be wrong about a player after less than 500-1000 hands, but we never have absolute certainty. When we have to decide at the table whether this guy who is 8/8 over a small sample is likely to be stealing from the CO or simply raising with a good hand, it makes more sense to assume he isn't betraying his stats *much* over a moderate sample. Sure, we can be wrong, but that's poker right?

In short, some "instareads" are more reliable than others. Classic thread (warning: math) for those who haven't read it: http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...age=37&fpart=1

I would say they should be and are very different, even though the % might be the same.

Definitely. The first thing that springs to mind is that small pairs over probably comparatively overrepresented in his UTG range. To bring the range back up to 10.5%, it likely includes a few speculative hands that 3bet as a bluff but don't have enough value UTG to raise. In addition, a fairly good player like this will be isolating weak players a fair bit with holdings that durrrr wouldn't approve UTG.

Yes, but too often people attribute narrow postflop ranges to small preflop numbers. They say things like "He just have to have ___" here. Well - no he doesn't. You don't know that until you see it. This idea will be central to our discussions.

I can't disagree. Would like to see cold call poistional stats as well. I have never actually done this so please point out where i am wrong. I have tried a couple times but get more out of watching there showdown hand history's then digging into the numbers. So this is very helpful.


Honestly what i see in the numbers is a good reason to find a different table. And little to no reason to sit down if i can't be on his left. So many tables out there without someone this good making life hard on me.

But were about improving here and not bumhunting so I will go home and stove some differnt 10.5 ranges and see how different they can be.

We are going to dive into preflop play very soon, but no reason to not get a jump start on it. Here is a simple task:

1. Name one hand that would probably be pretty much only in hero's UTG 10.5% range.
2. Name one hand that would probably be pretty much only in hero's BTN 3-betting range.
3. Name one hand that would be in both.

And of course ... why are they in those categories?

I'm intrigued that he 3bets more from MP than from the SB. Definitely positionally aware and knows how to exploit UTG nits. He is also likely running like poop if he's still at 5nl.