Very good. Your so good at explaining why your doing something instead what your doing.

Hello vernner

I liked the idea of doing sweat session with another player as you suggested here:

"As a side note, if you've never done a sweat session with another person playing around the same limits as you (or higher), these are some of the best things you can do to grow as a player."

However, my doubts are, is it really beneficial? Who should I pick up to do such a sweat session with?

I'd also like to ask you for an advice when one should think of moving up from NL50/start taking shots at NL100. Is it important to ask somebody from higher limits to review your stats/game? Should I get coached and 'order' regular sessions? How many hours of lessons do I need to take? My bankroll is 25 NL100 buy ins.

I've been playing:
VP/PFR/AF/AFreqq/ : 24/18/2.2/50
3b/Fold to 3b/Att. to Steal/Fold BB to Steal: 7.4/66/33/64
Cbet/Fold to Cbet: 80/43

And here's my graph from NL50:



Best Regards
ML

Hey! I will address your other question later, but I'm glad you posted your graph. I have a feeling you play a very different style from a lot of posters here, which is always interesting.

This and a similar discussion in the uNL thread on CR has me intrigued. I don't understand the obsession with the red line. The quote above summarises it for me: the more you bluff/ shove/ call when behind, the better your red line. Whoopee. Is that really good poker? Those who care about red lines will no doubt point to some of the graphs above.

However, I will point you to the showdown winnings in those graphs. They are invariably just above breakeven. How good are these players really at reading ranges when they struggle to make money at showdown?

I hope this doesn't come across too aggro; it's just my view on the topic.

And for the psychoanalysts out there, yes, of course my redline is ever descending.

I cant work out whether this is good or not. That`s a sick sick redline, but showndown winnings breaking even can`t be good? Is this just the result of LAGging it up a lot?

His graph is fine, SD winning isn't important, green line is.

As long as one of them is BE and the other is positive, you're winning money.

Whos your avatar

Reon Kadena - ipod commercial

Well as long as one of them is more postive then the other is negitive your making money.

To answer GQ, I think most Mirco players are curious/obsessed with the red line because it is negitive for them and there trying to improve. and its easy to spot, just looking at a graph. Where as most are probably leaking money calling 3 bets OOP but you have to use filters and all that to get that info and that takes time.

Here is a quote from GROGHEADFLOW about this style:

"Believe it or not, my style is actually lower variance than a 'standard' style. I know this because my showdown winnings are always hovering around breakeven, while my non showdown winnings are a 45 degree upwards angle with very little variance at all. Essentially, I'm not reliant on making hands, realising the equities of my hands etc in order to make money. This is what leads to high variance. Stealing a million and 1 small pots is a low variance style...."

But he also does mention this:

"It varies, the important thing though is that forcing them to adjust puts you in control and takes them out of their comfort zone. Hence, maybe they're forced to defend 3 bets wider oop, or suddenly find themselves in a 4bet pot without a clue what to do. Essentially people's adjustments are always terrible and open them up to more exploitation. (note, I only play a max of 4 tables... its not a style that allows autopiloting)"

So if you want to multi-table, this style is not for you. Like GROGHEADFLOW, MagisterLudi plays only 4-6 tables and thus is probably able to exploit a lot of the multi-tabling regs that are playing on auto-pilot.

All that said ...

It's all about your monthly income.

Who cares how you get it? If you get it by playing 24-tables of 100NL FR grinding out a 1.5 ptbb/100 winrate but are a SNE with 50+ rakeback, your steady monthly income will be solid.

On the other hand, you sacrifice potential future income with such play as you are much less likely to improve, move up, and potentially make more. This is another thing which BoyWonder talked about: Many players would be much better off in the long run playing fewer tables and working harder on their game. Ironically, too many players are in a rush to move up too quickly and get smacked down when they do. Very few people actually move up correctly. Tarjei82 discusses this:

"I would say that players in general play to high, and move up and down too much. In my mind to play for living takes beeing comfortable. If you move up, you will be nervous. If you move down, you will be impatient. Staying for a while on one level gives you more emotional stability, and players tend to underestimate that."

[x] bets river too much
[x] doesnt like to fold
[ ] leak
[x] wins +9bb/100

Find the players that have adjusted to u and re-adjust, keep beating the chit outta every1 else

I would also recommend Vitalmyth's videos at CR. His style is actually a departure from a lot of what we see often in that he often recommends more delayed cbets and giving up on a lot of flops but yet he makes check raise plays that I just have not developed the feel for yet when he thinks a villain's line is full of chit. His style basically tells a villain that if you are going to play against him you are risking your entire stack.

LOL

Yes, a nitreg who wins at showdown because he always has it, but is massively bleeding in the red, is a much better handreader than lets say grindcore and grogheadflow

I think you're on to something

Hi verneer just seen this thread now - ha bit of a coincidence but im doing this as a prop bet with one of my friends who s convinced it is "impossible" to make money at poker any more...

race ya

Bump, give us something new to think about already!!

Sweat Sessions

MagisterLudi wrote the following post in the thread:

After looking at his results (5+ ptbb/100 winner over 60K hands at 25NL and 50NL) and being intrigued by his 45 degree red line, I decided to discuss in this thread how to set up a sweat session and even offered to do one with him. First of all, the technical side of it.

What You Will Need:

You'll need two pieces of software. The first is some program which allows you to talk over the internet. The gold standard for this is Skype, but some people have been able to do it over AIM as well.

Secondly, you need a screen sharing program like Mikogo or TeamViewer. I use both - depending on who I'm working with. If you end up doing a lot of sweat sessions, you might find that some people like one over the other, so you'll probably end up having both yourself.

All three programs should be free. Finally, you need a mic and headphones. Most people use a headset, but just use what works for you. Make sure it's digital (USB) and not analog. The difference in sound is noticeable from my experience.

The Actual Sweat Session

The person who is going to play starts either Mikogo or TV and you connect on Skype. They play their normal session, and as interesting spots come up, you discuss them (Note: Make sure to check the TOS from a site to see if you are allowed to discuss hands as they are happening in real time - I think some sites have a "one player per hand" rule). The person watching asks questions and makes observations. They should also have a notepad out and write down interesting hands which they will discuss in more detail after the session.

It's difficult to do more than 3-4 tables at a time, so find what works for you. Sometimes two tables is good.

After the session, go back and spend time discussing the most interesting hands that came up. Talk about alternative lines, the reads you had at the time, and whether you could have lost less (if you lost the hand) or won more (if you won it). This is where the observer's notepad is very helpful.

You should both agree on a hand that you found the most interesting from the session and post it to 2+2 to get even more feedback.

Who Can/Should I Do This With?

uNL has their very own sweat session thread. Check it out for more info. Remember - the more you tell people about who you are and what you are looking for, the more likely it is that you will find someone that will be a good fit for you. Ideally it will be a person who plays similar limits and gets along with you well. For example, if you write:

One piece of advice is to PM people who you see active in the threads and whose advice you respect - it never hurts to ask. That said, with everything going on, I personally don't do random sweat sessions with people at this time, but have offered this in the past and will offer this in the future.

In my next post, I'll write about a few interesting situations that came up in my sweat with MagisterLudi.

A Few Interesting Hands from uSweat # 1

As MagisterLudi played 4-tables on Stars, I was very impressed with his game. He had no glaring preflop or postflop leaks although we did disagree on a few hands in a few spots. He is a meticulous note-taker spending most of the session looking for hands on the four tables which ended up going to showdown and drawing conclusions about the players involved. He would then write those notes down and develop reads.

This process would be impossible with more than 8 tables to do in real time. This is clue # 1 as to why his red line goes up. He is able to read hands and navigate sticky spots very well. It was clear that he thought about each hand and each street quite a bit - no snap decisions.

Hand # 1

The first interesting hand that came up involved A5o OTB vs. a player who at the time was playing 54/15 over 15 hands. MagisterLudi saw him get to showdown with AK in the following hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($49.45)
Hero (SB) ($53.55)
BB ($54.20)
UTG ($54.50)
MP ($19.40)
CO ($57.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2, J
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Button bets $2, 2 folds, MP calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.75) 3, A, Q (2 players)
MP checks, Button bets $3, MP calls $3

Turn: ($10.75) 5 (2 players)
MP checks, Button bets $7.50, MP calls $7.50

River: ($25.75) 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Button bets $7.50, MP calls $6.90 (All-In)

Total pot: $39.55 | Rake: $1.90

Results:
Button had K, A (one pair, Aces).
MP had 6, 7 (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Button won $37.65

So then our hand came up:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

CO ($63.15)
Hero (Button) ($50.30)
SB ($63.80)
BB ($58.50)
UTG ($37.30)
MP ($54.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, A
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, Hero bets $2, 2 folds, CO calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.75) 10, A, 10 (2 players)
CO bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50

Turn: ($9.75) K (2 players)
CO bets $6.50, Hero ... ?

The flop was standard, but the turn was tough because we were most likely in a position to call two streets to:

A) Chop
B) Getting value owned by a 10 (Does he really lead a 10 into us?)
C) Drawing very slim vs. QJ

I argued that we should have folded the hand preflop, but w/e - even if we had A9 or AQ we would be in a very similar spot on the turn (except that AQ has the blocker to QJ).

Hand # 2

This is a fairly minor hand, but interesting to think about as you move up and find more and more shortstackers at your tables.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $7.05
UTG: $50.05
CO: $65.60
BTN: $52.25
Hero (SB): $56.15

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with K 8
3 folds, Hero ...?

So the BB is sitting on 14 BBs. What's our best play here? I discussed the HU Push/Fold Nash Equilibrium with MagisterLudi in the context of this hand. Basically, as stack sizes go down, the game becomes push/fold (something shortstackers are very familiar with). Some hands become mathematically profitable shoves with 20 BB stacks. Others require less. So how does K8 fare on that scale?



Yep. Easy shove BvB. What is the weakest hand we could have shoved there and been mathematically correct in doing so? Looks like K5o and 95s are right around the 14 BB level. Now ... what if the SB shoved his 14 BB's into our BB? Now the requirements change:



K8 is still a call vs. this stack size, but tons of hands that we could have shoved with ourselves become folds to his shove. Something to think about as you deal with shorties.

Hand # 3

The final hand we discussed and debated:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69...n-have-679911/

Hello,

I just want to say here (again) that I greatly appreciate verneer's assistance. It was first time that my game was being observed and assessed by someone else and I didn't suspect it could be so educational. (Needles to say that I've just finished 4BI winning session; )
Thanks a lot,
and
Best regards,
ML

Hand 1

What appears to be a passive tendancy player limps. I don't hate the raise from the BTN with A5o. Based on the little read we have it appears he plays str8 forward when he has a hand he bets it when he is weaker he is probably calling or folding most the time.

That considered I don't see why the flop is standard call. My instict is to raise the donk bet. if the board was A Q 3 i would generally just call the donk bet. But I think here raising the flop is better, By the river we will only beat 1 ace and chop or lose to all other aces. But if we put the pressure on what is most likely a similar weak ace can't we get him to make the wrong decision and fold a fair amount of the time.

If he has a ten he probably lets us know. If he just flats i hope to check it down, and on the river if bombs it i probably fold most the time.

As played I think the turn fold is pretty standard, most likely have to call another big bet on the river to hope for a chop.

Verneer, Is the first chart for when we open shove on a short stacker bvb or when we raise and are facing a decision to call his shove? In the second one, is for when a ss open shoves on us or raises and we 3bet? I'm assuming the latter for both of these.

I assume the push chart is universally acceptable to use vs. all shortstackers. as far as the call chart, I think that defaults to ONLY if the shortstacker uses nash equilibrium strategy as well. At micros most of the rathole-type shortstackers are quite nitty and you often have to call with a tighter range than that chart suggests.

isn't this wrong? doesn't Nash equilibrium mean that both players are optimally pushing and calling? so if the short-stacker calls too much, then shouldn't that mean we need to start pushing less hands in response? hands like 89s should decrease in value while high card hands like Qx,Kx increase in value since we're getting called more often. then if villain folds too much we should be pushing more hands. there should be deviations to both charts depending on deviation's in villain's calling/pushing ranges.

my apologies. I meant to say "regular ratholing shorstackers". and for 98% of these regular ratholing shorstackers, they're going to be calling with a tighter range than what the nash equilibrium chart suggests which means you can still follow that chart to a tee in most cases. of course when you have a terrible loose shortstacker you have to adjust, but most of these terrible loose shortstackers don't use any kind of set strategy to exploit their stacksizes.