So I don't seem to have much of a plan when I flop middle pair OOP. I have some showdown value but don't want to play a big pot.
I often don't know whether to c-bet, check-call or check-fold the flop...
...and then the turn gives me problems, especially against players that float and bet at weakness - donk out, double barrel, check-call or check-fold???
Here are 4 hands:
1) Villain is 33/20 3-bet:3, Afq:34 over 212 hands and likes to float/play back at weakness.
they are all bets for value... even 66 since you can get call by worst 55 or random floats... you make him deny his equity share by betting which contributes to your value as well... you protect vs FD... and i wouldn't triple barrel, no... maybe double barrel depending on turn card
post 2 hands a day, in each in one thread, no one is gonna read all that chit.
Yeah sorry about this - probably should have filed it down to one or two hands but I'll probably not be posting every day.
Thanks for the input - much appreciated.
So general consensus is c-betting for thin value/to protect our hand - I probably haven't been doing this enough and in some cases I've been check-calling. (possibly fixed a leak already ).
Plans if we get raised on the flop (my knee-jerk is to fold but is this too weak)?
Plans for the turn if we get called and there is a) a blank b) a scare-card?
I think the turn is where these hands will get more interesting but I'll hold off on posting the turn for a while.
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you make him deny his equity share by betting which contributes to your value as well.
I don't understand quite what you mean but it sounds like valuable information - please explain!
let's say that vilain has two overcards and you decide to check flop instead of c-betting, then you are giving him the opportunity to catch a pair on turn or if he is on a draw to improve as well... what i mean is that by betting flop even with third best pair you are still value betting is some way... remember that value is not just the strenght of your card.. it's your strenght relative to vilain's range
what do you all mean by thin value? I dont understand this...i thought a value bet meant you know u have best hand and you want him to call...where does this "thin value bet" mean when you only have middle pair...sorry I am a beginner and would like explanation of a value bet, thin value bet, bet for value, shove for value....sometimes it seems like just a fancy word to justify certain uncertain actions....
what do you all mean by thin value? I dont understand this...i thought a value bet meant you know u have best hand and you want him to call...where does this "thin value bet" mean when you only have middle pair...sorry I am a beginner and would like explanation of a value bet, thin value bet, bet for value, shove for value....sometimes it seems like just a fancy word to justify certain uncertain actions....
thin value bet is when you have a hand but there is some hands beating you on a given board... thing is you don't want to go for full value since you don't want better hands to call or raise... you want to bet less and get call by some hand that you beat... and if you get raise you may fold and lose less money
bet for value and value bet is the same thing... i don't know what you expect like answer really... value bet= bet for value
and you may shove and do all kinds of crazy overbet if you think that vilain has a very good hand on a given board (ie. you put him on a pair of Ace good kicker and you have trips or better you have a flush and he has a straight... then go crazy if you think he'll call an overbet.
what do you all mean by thin value? I dont understand this...i thought a value bet meant you know u have best hand and you want him to call...where does this "thin value bet" mean when you only have middle pair...sorry I am a beginner and would like explanation of a value bet, thin value bet, bet for value, shove for value....sometimes it seems like just a fancy word to justify certain uncertain actions....
I hope that you re serious and not trolling.. if you are get lost dude
Hand 1:
Villain can have a lot of draws when he raises you here (FD, SD, overs + gutshot etc). I think he would just call with a 9 or T so you are probably good on the flop. However there is a lot of turn cards that suck for you, especially considering villain will play back at weakness, so if you continue with the hand after getting raised on the flop you have to be prepared to see a showdown if the turn and river are blanks. You could try and end the hand on the flop or just fold if you don't like the idea of some tricky spots on later streets, not sure what others think. If you are opening K9o pre with this villain on the BTN you have to be prepared for some tough decisions.
Hand 2:
Would definitely fold if I got raised here against this villain. Aggression from this sort of player is usually a big hand, and even if it isn't you can't rule out them catching a piece of any turn or river card. Usually they will just call and you can decide how much money you want in the pot before you see a showdown.
Hand 3:
A lot of 'solid' villains will raise you in position BvB when you cbet (and will call quite wide pre knowing it will be very tricky for you to play postflop). I would call and see a turn card. Again, don't call on the flop if you will c/f on a turn blank.
Hand 4:
Again there is a lot of draws that will raise, so I would call on the flop and hope for a nice turn card.
Not sure how useful any of this info is so if anyone disagrees let me know!
Hand 1:
Villain can have a lot of draws when he raises you here (FD, SD, overs + gutshot etc). I think he would just call with a 9 or T so you are probably good on the flop. However there is a lot of turn cards that suck for you, especially considering villain will play back at weakness, so if you continue with the hand after getting raised on the flop you have to be prepared to see a showdown if the turn and river are blanks. You could try and end the hand on the flop or just fold if you don't like the idea of some tricky spots on later streets, not sure what others think. If you are opening K9o pre with this villain on the BTN you have to be prepared for some tough decisions.
Yeah, this is bottom of my range to open here and I have to admit that I didn't adjust to villain so it is probably better to fold it pre. Like you say, I think that he'd be more likely to flat his one pair hands and could be raising his sets, big draws and 2-pairs. So I think I just fold it as his range has me beat and I don't really want to play for stacks here.
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Hand 2:
Would definitely fold if I got raised here against this villain. Aggression from this sort of player is usually a big hand, and even if it isn't you can't rule out them catching a piece of any turn or river card. Usually they will just call and you can decide how much money you want in the pot before you see a showdown.
Agree
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Hand 3:
A lot of 'solid' villains will raise you in position BvB when you cbet (and will call quite wide pre knowing it will be very tricky for you to play postflop). I would call and see a turn card. Again, don't call on the flop if you will c/f on a turn blank.
I have to admit that I will probably fold to a raise here (although it is probably too weak) - the reason being that I'd probably be the player that would c/f on a blank turn as I just don't want to get stacks in here.
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Hand 4:
Again there is a lot of draws that will raise, so I would call on the flop and hope for a nice turn card.
Yeah I think it's big draws, sets and AK (his 3-bet stat is 1% so he could flat with this pre) that raise here. I think he folds his air and all his pocket pairs 88 and lower. I suspect he calls TT,JJ,KQ type hands and would have 3-bet AA, QQ pre. Is there an argument for check-calling here instead of c-betting as he is likely to bluff his air when we check to him and it gives us a bit of pot control or does this smell of weakness and leave us open to being barrelled off our hand?
Two Plus Two
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