Hello uNL:

In times past, the uNL mods banded together and made a thread where questions could be asked of said moderators. And it's that time again.

So, we invite you to ask away and we will try to help in any way we can. Ask any poker related question here. General questions, theory questions, whatever; there are no dumb questions and we're here to answer. Also, feel free to ask any uNL forum related questions or 2p2 related questions. But remember, this isn't a "well" so we're not looking for personal questions asked of specific moderators.

Many times threads are locked for being too general or too whacky or too theoretical or a million other reasons. Well, here's a place to ask those burning questions. Between the 5 of us, we have a wealth of knowledge and experience playing all different levels. So go ahead and fire away.

As in the previous editions, the moderators will be the only people answering questions and this thread will be heavily moderated so don't get banned for being stupid.

Sincerely, the moderators:


ajmargarine
thac
Gelford
EMc
ama0330

Playing 25nl and 50nl, at what rate is a decent winrate here in terms of ptbb/100??? and what should one who takes the game seriously, playing 10k hands per week at a 23/20/4.5 be achieving?

Anything over 0ptbb/100 is good, but it is a hard question to answer ... +10ptbb/100 is this superhero winrate that for the very best is sustainable, but without kidding, it isn't something to judge yourself by ... if you're doing +2ptbb then I'd personally would say you shouldn't be sad .. and if you're doing +5ptbb there is reason to be very satisfied. Also poker is a cruel mistress and statistics are uncertain, hot and cold runs of 20.000 hands are not uncommon and most that do large winrates move up and never really find out if they just where running hot usually.

Also if you like to play many tables it will dig into your winrate, tho not necesarry your hourly, whether this is a good idea is another debate altogether

All in all imo, just have fun and enjoy yourself, winrates usually take care of themselves if you play well.

I think 5ptbb is still the benchmark for successful players. If you are in that area at uNL, give or take a few fractions, you are doing fine. Once you are up in the 7-10 range, you are doing fantastically great. And tbh, 3-5 ptbb is OK in this poker climate. If you are less than 3ptbb, yes you are a winner; but you definitely can improve and do better when playing uNL--aj

Like Gelford said, as long as you're winning, it's very good. I personally think 8ptbb is achievable but anyone who wins at that rate should be moving up before they find out a longterm winrate. I'd focus on playing solid poker and constantly improving. As long as you're in a state of constant improvement, the winrate will come.

100bb stacks:
what's your default play against an unknown UTG raise with AJo?

Call 60% 3bet 40%, as I get closer to the button ill probably 3bet a little more and call a little less

I don't mind folding it from MP. Call or fold sometime from CO or the blinds. Call usually from OTB.--aj

AJo is not a hand that will show a lot of profit. I don't 3bet it preferring something like 78s tbh, but sometimes I might call with the intent of taking a stab on a flop I like with just two overs or ... if I hit ... usually take a passive call downesque stance, which really shows that AJo isn't an awesome hand.

Folding is fine

Calling an UTG's raise UTG+1 with AJ is just bleeding money slowly, because of the chances of getting squeezed. I also fold it from the blinds 100%. I'll call about half the time in the CO and all the OTB. Postflop, just play passively with one pair, you generally don't wanna get a lot of money in, and you can control the size of the pot easily IP.

At 10-25NL 6-max, against a vilan around 25/20, what's the usual pre-flop 3-bet calling (i mean, we raise, and get a pot or 3/4 pot re-raise) range with and without position?

Also, what range against same vilan to do a 3-bet with or without position?

EDIT: You get re-raised pre-flop, what are the hands you call to see a flop with position and what are the hands you call to see a flop without position on the guy.

2nd part is the inverse, hands which we 3-bet (specially with position)

depends on their ranges


Might want to re-phrase this, I do not understand what you are asking

what seperates great micro stakes players from good ones??

The great microstakes players have the confidence, consistency of play and the bankroll to move up to SSNL and are no longer uNL'ers.--aj



The great uNL players have been succesfull at higher stakes and have moved down due to roll issues, income inssues or just to have fun.

Seriously, there is no reason to not move up and instead try to become a 'great' uNL players, as the challenges are at higher stakes and that is where you develop.


The ability to get actual reads to help narrow a range versus using a HUD to get a read. Also a lot of what it will take to make a good uNL player great is an extender heater that will get him/her confident in their game and away from rake killing games.

Those who break out of microstakes the fastest do so because they are patient, mentally balanced and humble enough to learn from their mistakes. Thats why not many people make it

I've heard limping UTG with aces can be more profitable than raising... any merit to that?

Well, there's many different (profitable) ways to play this game. In the 100's of thousands of hands I've played in my career, I've never limped AA from UTG because their never seemed to be a good situation for it. I'll let you know if I run across one in the next few years, heh.

Seriously, limping AA would have to be done within an overall style of play for it to be any good. Meaning, the way you played other hands would need to be consistent with openlimping AA. And most uNL'ers are just learning the tried and true ways of ABC poker, which is when you have a good hand pre and it's unopened to you, raise it up like you got AA, which in this case you actually hold--aj

Maybe fullring with a few more limpers then an aggro BTN and boom you reraise, but theoretically in a shorthanded game, where aggression is king and you just pound pound pound on players with all sorts of hands, it is very hard to balance limping AA

Of course there will always be game conditions where this is the case in a vaccum, but in the real world you are just losing so much value by not raising aces, and making it so easy for everyone to outflop you, that it just cant ever be a winning play. given that you shouldnt really be limping in general anyway, just makes it more incorrect

Could you explain a little bit about range-merging and whether or not it is useful at uNL?

Could I explain? No, not really. Do I find it useful? No, not really. I mean, I might do it, whatever it is, over the course of sessions without naming it; but, I don't have much use for it tbh. --aj

It is based on the fact that there is uncertainty in this game, namely different opponent do different things, so statistically if there is a chance that some opponents will fold a better hands and some might call with a bluffcatcher on a board texture, on average you make the most profit by betting for bluff/value in the longrun.

This also works vs a single opponents how some of the time will call with a bluffcatcher and some of the time will fold a better hands (while at other times do the opposite)

If you can pinpoint your opponent to never fold a better hand or never call with worse, then you can't merge off course


Is it usefull at uNL .. that is up for debate

I know this is a bit of a muted answer, but its just a buzzword and means nothing to almost all players. Ive heard really good HSNL players call it rubbish, so its not some big secret key. As far as uNL goes, forget it, dont even waste a moment on it.

do you think it would be beneficial for one's game to grind micro's for a long time in order to iron out a lot of theoretical and emotional mistakes (emotional being: tilt/fps/focus problems), when the mistakes are cheap

or would you advocate to move up more quickly when beating the game for let's say >5ptbb over >20k hands even if the player is still making a lot of these mistakes? learning while progressing? (also since the games will change a lot while moving up)

don't want to get beeched is bru!

You should always remember that often your BR will grow much faster than your skill. However, in uNL its also important to move up to the 25 or 50nl level quick enough that rake will not pwnsauce you. When you are ready to move up, you will know. Do not let your bankroll be that judge. If you feel your skill set is ready for the next level, then so be it. If it is not, learn/read/ play more until it is

If you're uncomfortable playing with a small roll or just simply scared or at least scared money, then you definately should not move up, playing uNL for a while in order to get a better feel for the game and variance is fine. But playing uNL for ages in order to 'perfect' it, isn't admirable on the other hand, if you understand what I mean.

Thanks for this. I have a question related to the (edit: what was) above post on 3betting.

When defending against a light 3-bet, what are the merits between 4betting light, and flatting with a wider part of our range. I guess IP, flatting becomes superior as it makes the best use of our position (we can float a cbet on the flop for roughly the same amount as we would put in by 4betting). While OOP a light 4bet every now and then seems better. But recently I've been reading about people flatting with SCs, and check shoving any piece of the board. Should we be flatting some of our strongest hands (AA, KK etc) to balance our range a bit? And what hands should we call a 3bet (IP or OOP) if we're going to start calling a bit lighter. The worst of our good hands (like KQ, AJ) or the best of our bad hands (like 87s)?

Four betting will take it down or you will have to flip for rollz, so while fourbetting absolute trash is ok occasionally, usually hand that do well vs villians range are choosen, like 77 or AQ, while hands like SC do not welcome a pf flip, but they are ok to flat oop since villian is likely to cbet a very big part of his range and then you can either go nuts on boards that miss his range or on boards where you have a draw, since then in a RRs pots, you're basically are doing it for free and don't really mind a call, but the FE is your profit. Just note, that if you only fight back on boards where you have a piece, you might be bleeding money by making a pf call, so you need to fight other spots as well.

This is not of much use in uNL, since wide threebettors are not that common. Btw note if you play an exploititive game, then showing down a few bluffs in a row where you flat and fight against a villian that pays attention actually might make you flip your strategy and start flatting AA and other strong hands vs him, just too stay in shape. But this is a big subject

Would you advocate 4 betting light at 25nl against 22/20 regs?

Short answer no with a but, long answer yes, with an if. Worry about other parts of your game and not about the 1 or 2 light 3 bettors at 25 nl

A very important skill for a player to have is the discipline to fold a marginal hand to a 3b when it seems you are getting 3b preflop every other hand. So, instead of light 4betting, work on that skill. And that's not even a throwaway answer. Work on it because you need it in this climate.

When people are 3betting you all the time, they are the ones that have to be right in guessing that you are weak and have to fold. When they are wrong, you are the one that rakes in the profit. When you enter the realm of light 4betting all of a sudden the onus is on you to be right all the time and you are the one who takes it in the shorts when you are wrong. Light 4betting is will just lead you to Tagfish Central, down Swong Boulevard, over past the 0.5ptBB/100 Highway--aj

how to avoid fancy play syndrome?

Haha .. it is an ego thing, if you can't control it, then you might want to see a shrink or similar ... holla ! (semi joke, but with some truth in it)

Try to limit your FPS to value spots only, if you must do it. There you just gain or lose a little profit? FPS that involves multistreet bluffing with 4 high is a recipe for disaster.

It's mostly a function of ego. Just realize that most of the time, poker is won with ABC tactics and solid play. Sure you see all the sweet hands in MSNL and SSNL where people do something silly and win the pot, but that's because people don't post the other 18/20 times they fold in that spot.

--avfletch

sorry to hijack his post but i am interested in what the mods have to say on this subject

A 10/8 nit can have my blinds if he throws out a rare PFR. I'll play for set value with the pp's and fold the rest. A 20/15 is getting 3b from me from the blinds usually if I want to play a hand although I'll call some with the pp's. A LAG is getting the full arsenal of folds/calls/and 3b's.

A 20bb stack is getting jammed on if I want to play a hand. Often times too the 50 bb stack if I feel I am ahead of his raising range. If I have premium, he gets a normal 3b. 100 bb stacks get the above. And then your last set of Q's doesn't make sense when calling out of the blinds.

Don't be leary of being tight in the blinds. You don't have to expand there to be increase your success. Tight is right is an old cliche but it's truthful. I'll usually expand there when it's going to be 3 or 4 way to the flop and try to hit a Bingo hand with a connector; but generally HU OOP from the blinds is a win a little here, lose a little bit more there battle that's often left better unfought at uNL imo.



You're not missing out a lot of profit by folding pf when faced with the prospect of playing oop. It is a difficult task, where you need to be ready to get it in with slim edges blind, which can lead to bigger swings. It comes down to a matter of handreading, if you're good at it, then go ahead and go nuts, just remember that oop is a difficult place to be

The shorter stacks are, the more inclined are you to just flip sng style - note 20bb stacks have a tendency to shove ATC if you check it to them on flop

How do you generally react to someone playing an unconventional loose/aggressive manner? They seem to make bets according to where they 'feel' they are in a hand - this is generally a pain in the arse to play against, though there's plenty of money to be had.

This is uNL, so we assume that all players are bad, but tbh ... the above sounds like a good player and lots of money might actually not be had.

Perhaps villians is just a lagtard that overplayes his hands, but poker is a game of handreading (putting people on ranges) and if you read well, then you can play more hands making you look loose and dumb, but in reallity good loose players just outplay their opponents.

But that being said, as a generel rule, you just need to lower your standards and gamble it up with less than tptk+

How would you say is the best way in which to get better at handreading??? Are there any articles on it? or is the best way just to go through and try and guess peoples hands as you are playing???

If you have Pokertracker, you can replay hands in their replayer hiding villains cards. Then based upon the action, try to put them on a range of hands and then expose their cards to see how you did. Works best with older sessions so you don't remember the particulars of hands played.--aj



I also feel many players 3 bet a lot from the blinds from BTN opens. But not enough people 3 bet on the button to CO raises. Should you be 3betting more from the button because you have position, or should you be 3 betting more from blinds because their button range is wider?

Also on the button, what hands would you 3 bet a:

a) Solid regular
b) Loose Passive Fish
c) Tight Nit
d) Maniac Donkey


This is my last reply for today (monday) but here is the deal

You opponent has a range attached to each of his actions, so you job is to get a feel what parts of his ranges he does what with. There is the recent Baluga post where he points out the know fact, that if a villian is just calling flop, then turn, then a river bet might well be in order, because he is calling with just a wide part of his range and might have 2nd pair or a draw or TPNK or ... so unlike what we call in Baluga theorem situations, going broke with TPTK is actually good.

Now if he raises turn, then his range (not everyones range), but manys ranges will be very tight and caution is called for.


So all in all it is a question of what they do when, which leads us to your question about 3betting ... tbh, the main factor is not how tight/loose they are pf, but how they will play after your 3bet .. if the nit fold all but AA/KK, but opens 12% then you can profitably 3bet ATC. If you opponent will always call but play fit/fold post flop, then you can 3bet a very wide range and let the cbet do its magic. Some opponents like to 4bet like crazy or call and shove anyflop or other shenigans ... it depends, but you really need to stop thinking in boxes like donkey, nit, turd and start thinking

1. What are his pf tendencies
2 What are his postflop tendencies

What does that mean to me ... ???



Oh and may I recommend poker stove and either poker razor or stox combo

I made a post like this in the brew, but because I don't post in there often or read it, I guess I misunderstood the purpose of that thread. I'll repost it here.

I'm a winning lag player over about a 30k sample size at 25NL averaging about 8.5bb/100 (I have the "Treat 'BB' For NL/PL as Big Blind Amt." unchecked in pt, if it is checked it is around 16bb, I'm kind of PT retarded so I don't understand this so well, i assume 8 is closer to my true WR obv). Anyway, I'm moving up in stakes to 50nl and noticed the deep tables. Traditionally I have kept a bankroll of 30bi. So for this level $1500. How much risk am I assuming if I play mostly deep tables (200bb) on the same $1500 roll.

Should I play on a 3k roll for the deep tables? I'm kind of unsure about how the play is here. If I'm opening myself up to much more variance. My small encounters at APs deepstacked tables showed me that you will play short stacks and bad deepstacked regulars but I'd still appreciate you guys to weigh in. Thanks a bunch.


Statistically it is a function of WR and SD .. in other words I have no idea as such and not really interested in doing any work to find out (I suspect your SD is larger on those tables making swings bigger)

Well, I too don't know the math; but, I would say intuitively that you need a bigger roll to play the deep tables. Just chiming in to mention that playing with a 100bb stack at the deep tables is fine and I do it all the time at FTP. The bad deepstacks are still going to play bad for you and the shorties aren't going to be as short as they are on a normal table. Win/win--aj