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General Question Regarding C/R Flop General Question Regarding C/R Flop

05-24-2017 , 04:05 PM
sup guys,

ive been reviewing my stats and I have a problem with not defending enough vs cbets and aggression in general. however I find it difficult to find enough hands to raise. for example say im in bb vs btn and flop is th 8h 2s, we only have 10 value combos (how many bluff combos should we have) so we cant raise that much in general. can I combat this by raising wider such as tptk but using a smaller raise sizing? any general advise would be appreciated as this isn't just a bvb issue I seem to be overfolding all over the place.
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 04:24 PM
Meh first of all flop raise or x/r in general are not so frequent. In the end with capped range you dont want to raise much. There are extreme flops you can raise 25-30%, there are flops you raise 0, all in all 10% x/r is on the aggresive side. Definitely dont have to raise only to achieve a stat.

Otf you chose I would have 11c valueraise and for 3x size (cca pot) looking for 22 bluffs. That is 33c some 7-8% x/r why should it be wrong.
Overfolding all over the place is definitely wrong, can be due to bad flop def or too wide pre call.
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 04:33 PM
wrt button vs bb, remember that you're getting a very good price preflop because you already have a bb invested so you don't need to win often* to breakeven thus making a high fold to c-bet okish esp since you're oop. Just make sure to not force anything. But also make sure to not undervalue hands. Also, the betsize you're facing should dictate your continuing range and how you play that range.

imo raising TPTK in that spot is not the best play. I also don't know how you only have 10 combos of hands to value raise there. I assume you mean T8s(3)/88(3)/22(3) but counted T8s 4 times instead. You should have all T8 combos and depending on raise size pre, T2s

*30.7% when facing a 3x raise

Quote:
(how many bluff combos should we have)
This part I'm no expert about so for fear of looking like a fool I'll let others like brokestars or MrNo address that if they decide to post itt.
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05-24-2017 , 05:00 PM
thanks for responses guys. my raise cbet/raise flop bet is like 4.75% so need to up a bit.

isolated - yh I meant 9 combos, counted t8s 4 times by accident.

shamway - regarding the value:bluff ratio - why do we have 11 value and 22 bluff combos. sorry but im not v knowledgeable on things like that
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 05:02 PM
I think you can raise something like 2 bluffs for every value hand in that spot maybe less OOP.You can find right number in the book I send you few days ago.
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 05:06 PM
ahh yh cheers man, ill try and find the chapter for that
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 05:09 PM
Just so it's more clear, I was talking about postflop when I said this:
Quote:
Also, the betsize you're facing should dictate your continuing range and how you play that range.
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I thought it was two value for every one bluff*. Doug goes through the math in a video titled "how I won millions playing poker" on his YT channel.

*this may be just for a psb. I'm not sure. But either way, 2 bluff to 1 value wouldn't be correct if I'm remembering his video correctly.
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05-24-2017 , 05:17 PM
Well it depends on the street on flop you can bluff much more often obv.If you have polar range vs medium range then if polar range wants to bet all 3 streets for PS bet he just bet 2:1 otf 1:1ott and 1:2 otr
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05-24-2017 , 05:21 PM
ahhh that makes sense. Thanks for that, Haiz .
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05-24-2017 , 05:24 PM
On the river the bluff/value is exactly 1/2, correct for potsize bet and strictly polarised range. You can reason it by "worst bluffcatchers should have 33% equity which suits to 2value/1 bluff betting range". You can also prove that with this balance your range has +1pot EV and is unexploitable.
For earlier streets it is more difficult but can use rule of thumb bluf 2:1 flop, 1:1 turn and 1:2 river.
General Question Regarding C/R Flop Quote
05-24-2017 , 05:42 PM
thanks guys, appreciate the responses.

one last thing which I think is a stupid question but do the ratios stay the same when raising instead of when we are betting?
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05-24-2017 , 09:06 PM
Ratio depends on betsize so it's going to be a lot more difficult with raising (on the fly anyhow). Your ratio of bluff:value can be higher on flop, turn, or river depending on your sizing. In Haiz's example, he's betting pot and Shamway is going with the same assumption. Since you're rarely betting/raising pot otf, you should be bluffing > a 2:1 ratio.
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05-25-2017 , 04:37 AM
"While exact ratio will depend on board texture and can not be solved the good rule of thump is 2:1 bluff to value ratio when you are raising IP "
thats form applications of no limit holdem,but OOP you should bluffs less.Its true that ratio is depends on sizing but its kind of the same if we go 75 % or 100 % of pot and our bluffs effects that to.
If you cbetting you should bluff even more and you should bluff less in 3b and 4b pots because stack are not that deep.
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