Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding micro stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (25c-50c and below)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-22-2008, 03:28 AM   #1
AZplaya
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: back on FTP ftw
Posts: 2,237
Common mistakes I see

It's been a long time since I wrote a strategy type of essay for 2+2, and it's Friday night, my girl has crashed for the night, I'm bored, so I'm gonna try to throw something together. Most of this stuff is really basic, but also common spots that I see the regs in my game ****ing up day after day. So here goes, a brief synapses of the common mistakes I see.

Making a pot commiting bet when you shouldn't be stacking off
This is probably the most common leak I see at the tables, and we've all been there. You make a value bet on the turn with a strong hand, villain crai, and your like "Oh snap mudda fugga baluga whale I gots to fold." Problem is you just value bet half your stack. The fix is quite simple - Get into a routine, before you act, on every street. The process should go something like this: Look at the pot size and relative stack sizes. Make a decision, before you bet, what you will do if you are raised. Then make your bet. If you know that you will fold to a c/r, then bet an amount that allows you to still extract value, but also avoid crossing the commitment threshold. I know it sounds incredibly simple, but I see soooo many post where someone value bets the turn for like $20, and then they wonder if they should stack off with 2/3's of there cash already in the pot. Just think before you bet.

Understanding why we 3 bet
3 betting is a very complex topic, but one of the basic mistakes many players make is they donít think about why they are 3 betting. Before you 3 bet, think about why you are 3 betting. Generally speaking, there are 2 reasons we 3 bet: For value; and as a bluff. So many players have a hand range that they just "auto" 3 bet, and never put any thought into why they are doing it. Take for example a post I saw a couple weeks ago. Hero has KQo in CO, unknown opens UTG+1, he 3 bets, flop is Q22. Villian crai him all in. Hero doesn't know what to do. Well letís look at pre flop. Why are we 3 betting, as a bluff or for value? KQ is far too good of a hand to bluff with pre, so if I'm 3 betting KQ, it is always for value. Generally speaking, it is because I know my opponent is going to call fairly light, and will be entering the pot with hands that I have crushed. So when I 3 bet KQ pre, and the flop comes Q22, I'm stacking off with a double fist pump, fully expecting to stack my opponents Q8/77/fd or whatever. Basically, just think about why you 3 bet before you do it, don't just say "oh I have KQ I reraise lolz."

Not 3 betting as a pure bluff often enough
There was a time when 3 betting light was all the craze, and everyone on 2+2 was 3 betting each other, and the lighter you 3 bet, the longer your e-penis was, and chaos ensued. The whole 3 betting light craze has died down, but it is still a very important and often overlooked part of a solid playerís game. The key to light 3 betting is exploiting the right players in the right situations. So many people spew in this part of their game, and itís mainly because they are trying to exploit the wrong types of players. What we are looking for is someone with a fairly wide opening range, and a very high fold to 3 bet %, and who plays very weak tight post flop. A 19/16, who opens his range to 25% in lp, and folds to 3 bets at an 80%+ clip, is a perfect candidate. Early in my sessions, I will usually 3 bet a LP opener with trash like 84o or w/e, very frequently. What I'm looking for is how people respond to a 3 bet. If someone is calling me allot, and trying to outplay me post flop, I usually stop. However, there are a ****load of tag's out there who are highly exploitable, and every time you fold to their lp open, your giving money away. The key is to not get carried away, and recognize when people are adjusting to you, and adjust accordingly.

Responding to 3 bets
3 options present themselves when we are 3 bet: We can fold, we can call, or we can 4 bet. If we are consistently raise/folding to 3 bets pre, we will allow ourselves to be exploited. So it is necessary sometimes to play back(or change tables). Allot of people like to call a 3 bet, planning to shove a wide variety of flops. I guess it's a matter of style, but I much prefer to 4 bet if I've decided I need to take a stand. First off, be sure you are sizing your 4 bets correctly. I had an "ah-ha" moment about a month ago. I sent a hand to a poker buddy of mine(terp). In the hand, I raised QQ from UTG+1, solid tag 3 bet to $12 from the CO(NL $100), I reraise to $45, he shoved and stacked me with his KK. Standard cooler I thought. terp enlightened me to the fact that my 4 bet size pre was bad. Basically, by 4 betting to $45, I'm allowing a good player to play perfectly. Now villain knows I'm committed to calling a shove, and can play accordingly. 4 betting smaller, to say $30ish, allows more maneuverability and I can fold without being committed. Not that in this particular situation I should have folded, but at least it gives me options. So again, sometimes itís ok to 4 bet/ fold pre flop...maybe not an eye opener for everyone, but this realization was a definite light bulb moment for me.

Realizing when a table is no longer +ev
This is a simple mistake but good god I see this allot, especially on FTP. Juicy table with 2 fish and 4 tags, slowly both the fish go busto and leave, and all of a sudden there are 6 tags trading blinds. I realize that its tough to stay on top of things when your 8 tabling, but guys, there have been times were I've seen 6 regs stay at the same table for half an hour, trying to out-nit each other. You should consistently be scanning your tables, and for each table, ask yourself: "Why am I here." My method is to quickly scan each table, and if no one has a VPIP over 35, I'm out with a quickness.

Hopefully you'll find some of this useful, I tried not to ramble too much but meh. I'm sure I missed some stuff, so please add to this thread the common mistakes you see good players make.
AZplaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 03:40 AM   #2
rothko
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 8,206
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZplaya View Post
Early in my sessions, I will usually 3 bet a LP opener with trash like 84o or w/e, very frequently.
hi playa,

good post. thank you for taking the time to write this up.

the quoted section, however, isn't really the best thing to be doing. go ahead and see what the table is up to, but still do so with hands that have some kind of potential.

thanks again.
rothko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 03:46 AM   #3
mookboi
old hand
 
mookboi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 200NL imo
Posts: 1,394
Re: Common mistakes I see

I agree with rothko. I'm all about 3betting light, and since I been running like 15/12 this month, ppl are like "lol, nit has the nuts."

But I prefer you 3bet with suited baby aces, scs, and suited 1 gappers much more than 84o. I mean.. if we are called, what are we hoping for with 84o?

I also think the last point is one of the most important. There's a ton of fish at the tables, yet half the tables are 5 tags nitting each other up.

Great post.
mookboi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 03:59 AM   #4
rothko
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 8,206
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZplaya View Post
Responding to 3 betsFirst off, be sure you are sizing your 4 bets correctly. I had an "ah-ha" moment about a month ago. I sent a hand to a poker buddy of mine(terp). In the hand, I raised QQ from UTG+1, solid tag 3 bet to $12 from the CO(NL $100), I reraise to $45, he shoved and stacked me with his KK. Standard cooler I thought. terp enlightened me to the fact that my 4 bet size pre was bad. Basically, by 4 betting to $45, I'm allowing a good player to play perfectly. Now villain knows I'm committed to calling a shove, and can play accordingly. 4 betting smaller, to say $30ish, allows more maneuverability and I can fold without being committed. Not that in this particular situation I should have folded, but at least it gives me options. So again, sometimes it’s ok to 4 bet/ fold pre flop...maybe not an eye opener for everyone, but this realization was a definite light bulb moment for me.
yes, this ties into your earlier point of not "making a pot committing bet when you shouldn't be stacking off." the reason that 4bets should be small is to enable 4bet bluffs. you need to bet the same whether you are bluffing or actually have a hand that you are willing to stack off with. at unl, there shouldn't be too much 4bet bluffing going on, but unlers still need to employ correct bet sizing in order to a) facilitate those odd bluffs and b) prepare for moving up.

an excellent point to remind everyone of. nicely done, playa.
rothko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 04:15 AM   #5
Olezh1g
banned
 
Olezh1g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: sorry 4 bad English
Posts: 70
Re: Common mistakes I see

thanks, added in bookmarks.
keep posting!
why I am here? =)
Olezh1g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 07:36 AM   #6
Nemesis69
Pooh-Bah
 
Nemesis69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Trying to run good at life
Posts: 5,247
Re: Common mistakes I see

Good post!

I has QK, I 3betz lolz. Best part imo.
Nemesis69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 07:38 AM   #7
higherkicker
banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ninja-editing posts since\1988 imo
Posts: 4,952
Re: Common mistakes I see

Great post man.
higherkicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 07:46 AM   #8
vixticator
clutch
 
vixticator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Watch the throne
Posts: 116,901
Re: Common mistakes I see

I usually only 3bet for value. You think that's a problem? I'll throw in some light bluffs against certain players but it's very, very rare. In fact I probably lean more towards calling esp with position these days with hands as big as AK even. This was my adjustment to that period where everyone was going nuts preflop. I agree it's slowed down a bit.

And, yeah, I commit myself to the pot too much. But I call instead of fold in those situations.
vixticator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 07:51 AM   #9
longfields
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: South East UK
Posts: 101
Re: Common mistakes I see

Really excellent post, thanks for taking the time.

Moderator: Could this be added to the strategy sticky?

btw:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZplaya View Post
synapses
I think the word you're looking for is 'synopsis'.
longfields is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 07:56 AM   #10
Triggerle
old hand
 
Triggerle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: What's a matter with you, rock?
Posts: 1,559
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by mookboi View Post
But I prefer you 3bet with suited baby aces, scs, and suited 1 gappers much more than 84o. I mean.. if we are called, what are we hoping for with 84o?
Well, one could argue the other way:
Most of the time if we are called small suited aces and connectors are equally worthless. So the whole point of 3betting light is to NOT get called (i.e. a pure bluff). So then why waste a perfectly playable hand like a suited connector on a pure bluff?
Triggerle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 08:38 AM   #11
ama0330
banned
 
ama0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Equidistant
Posts: 8,281
Re: Common mistakes I see

nh sir. I will add to le sticky.
ama0330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 08:50 AM   #12
alexDJI
Pooh-Bah
 
alexDJI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 3,779
Re: Common mistakes I see

Thanks a lot! Really helped my game
alexDJI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 09:30 AM   #13
chris269
grinder
 
chris269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 462
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggerle View Post
Well, one could argue the other way:
Most of the time if we are called small suited aces and connectors are equally worthless. So the whole point of 3betting light is to NOT get called (i.e. a pure bluff). So then why waste a perfectly playable hand like a suited connector on a pure bluff?
I think, when you 3bet as a bluff you have two +ev desicions. 1st the 3bet itself has a high foldequity. And if you are called (which will happen often enough) you have the 2nd +ev desicion on the flop when you cbet, because villain often enough misses the flop with his AK/77/98s/...

But in the case villain hits the flop somehow you want a little bit of playable hand, that can flop decent, and SCs/S1gapper/OSCs can flop MUCH better than 84o.
chris269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 12:05 PM   #14
AZplaya
veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: back on FTP ftw
Posts: 2,237
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
I prefer you 3bet with suited baby aces, scs, and suited 1 gappers much more than 84o. I mean.. if we are called, what are we hoping for with 84o?
Ya I mean what I'm trying to say is that there are a ton of situations where 3 betting/squeezing pre is +ev with any two cards, far more than most meow chow tags realize or attempt to exploit.
Quote:
I think the word you're looking for is 'synopsis'.
You sir are correct.
AZplaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 01:27 PM   #15
RobBizzle
old hand
 
RobBizzle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,712
Re: Common mistakes I see

Nice post, thanks.
RobBizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 01:55 PM   #16
NeverScurred
veteran
 
NeverScurred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: front yard broad day with the SK
Posts: 2,495
Re: Common mistakes I see

A+ post AZ, ty for writing this
NeverScurred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 02:10 PM   #17
kaz2107
Jumpman HOLLA!
 
kaz2107's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KEEPBRAGGIN!
Posts: 8,858
Re: Common mistakes I see

why dont u post more u fish. u write really well.
kaz2107 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 03:31 PM   #18
Spurious
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Spurious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 18,207
Re: Common mistakes I see

Good post!

4betting light, someone in the SSNL forum wrote an article about 4betting light, cliff notes: 4bet to 2.25 the 3bet size, you wont commit yourself and he won't pick up on that most of the time.
Spurious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 04:46 PM   #19
Hebel
old hand
 
Hebel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: **** youy frogbitch****whoreanus
Posts: 1,506
Re: Common mistakes I see

this post needs more love. thank you so much for doing this, unl really, reeeeeeeeally appreciates it
Hebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 05:19 PM   #20
Gelford
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Gelford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,348
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggerle View Post
Well, one could argue the other way:
Most of the time if we are called small suited aces and connectors are equally worthless. So the whole point of 3betting light is to NOT get called (i.e. a pure bluff). So then why waste a perfectly playable hand like a suited connector on a pure bluff?
Cos a useless hand will stay useless unless it hits the odd freak flop (trips or whatever)

A suited Ace will at times hit a draw allowing you to play for stacks after the flop or at times you will be saved by turning or rivering an ace (say your cbet only gets a call or you are ip and choose to check behind on flop)
Gelford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 09:13 PM   #21
rothko
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 8,206
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by rothko View Post
the reason that 4bets should be small is to enable 4bet bluffs.
what i meant to say was, "one of the reasons . . ." just in case, that wasn't clear. merely wanted to expand on this aspect as to why it's not good to commit yourself to the pot. prolly both pointless posts.
rothko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 09:29 PM   #22
wooziephantom
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,567
Re: Common mistakes I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZplaya View Post
Making a pot commiting bet when you shouldn't be stacking off
In some situations I make pot commiting bets with the plan of folding to cr/rr. I think even shortstack donks have some feel for the concept of pot commitment and make them less likely to shove third pair or ace high
Are u advocating to never do this?
wooziephantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #23
marcopolio
grinder
 
marcopolio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 519
Re: Common mistakes I see

Nice post. The point around table selection is pretty key - there seems to be a ton of tags playing each other on a lot of tables.

How do you go about table selecting?
marcopolio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 08:22 AM   #24
leeq
centurion
 
leeq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 171
Re: Common mistakes I see

Thanks!
leeq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2009, 08:33 AM   #25
farinaccio
journeyman
 
farinaccio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Flopping nuts, drawing dead on turn
Posts: 308
Re: Common mistakes I see

Best bump I've ever run into. Enlightening if you missed it in March.
farinaccio is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online