In the "Moving Through uNL Thread", I got the following comment:

I quickly check my HEM and found out who this player was. I replied:

I had you playing 36/34 ... that seems too loose. Not sure how much I was stealing .. my fair share though I guess. Here is a hand we played together. Not sure what you c/c the flop with ...

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

UTG: $33.14
Hero (MP): $19.17
CO: $10.00
BTN: $13.91
SB: $17.70
BB: $9.00

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with T J
UTG raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 2 A 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.60, UTG calls $0.60

Turn: ($1.95) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.50, UTG folds

In response to this, he wrote:

I responded that "my plan was to raise your c-bet there, so I don't think it would have been a good option unless you are ready to make hero call downs on a few streets."

This started a lot of discussion about the merits of such plays. I dug around for some old footage that I did with your own MDoranD and posted the following example of a similar spot:

77 raises flop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enmFe11Se-A

... and the method to the maddness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_S0yxhaYMY

This lead to more discussion on the merits of such play and the best ways to play against an opponent who is capable of making such moves. Since the discussion proved to be fairly interesting, I figured I would move it here to get some more views on this and de-clutter the "Moving" thread.

The two spots are so different on so many levels, but the essence of them is the same: If you are going to call preflop with some more marginal hands, don't simply hope to hit a flop. Be ready to make some moves on the right kind of boards vs. the right type of player.

im wondering if you looked into the math and all before you bluff raised with 77. or did you just find the hand history and say 'y did i bluff raise' and look at the math?

Great video analysis, it basically explains that you're making an odds play b/c it hits much more your value range than his cbetting range which is indeed quite wide.
However i don't entirely agree that you shouldn't do this play on a 89J board like you said, because this flop totally hits your range, and even if he has a hand cbetting it, he might fold a high % of the time to a raise. If he just calls without shipping you still can blow him off the pot on later streets.

The latter. As I said in the video, at the time I felt it was a +EV play for the reasons I would later look into, but then the math confirmed it.

The thing is ... he won't be c-betting an 89J board with a hand like 22, but will be c-betting a K89 board with 22. So - his range for c-betting a 89J board is really skewed towards value, and trying to bluff a nit or TAG out of a made hand is much, much more difficult.

Basically, with 77 I thought I could make an immediate profit in that spot, whereas on a 89J board I don't think I could - I would have to bluff on later streets.

Great topic Verneer, that part of is essential to learning how to LAG up our game and stop being 19/16 nits.

77 futher discussion in "Moving up..." thread:

Verneer told he would give up if called on the flop.
So i asked if we were the villan and we call the raise and turn & river goes c/c, c/c... We make a note on him "capable of bluff-raising OTF , gives up if called", how shuld we adjust?
Answer was that we should c/f and c/c more.

So lets se.... IMO...
I'd say, c/c everything that beats A8 with the intention of calling all non diamonds turns, c/c TT-QQ (with those we can c/c even if diamonds as hes rarely bluffing 3 streets but could try to rep a flush on the turn), b/3bet KQ, AK and better. Agree?

This got me to thinking, when we bluff raise post flop what are the best hands to do this with. Say with flush draws is it better to raise or flat ip with them and plan on floating? Does this change against certain villians and when we have overcards or maybe a gutshot that go along with our flush draw? I think, from experience, the best hands to bluff raise are ones where you have backdoor outs such as backdoor fd and a gutshot.

Also, does board texture ever play a factor when you bluff raise? I mean obv it does but like if the board is really dry or not. For instance, when we bluff raise a 47Qr flop ip we aren't really representing much.

verneer do u coach? i consider 10nl my home, i think some tips from you might open up my game

Ah ... one of my favorite topics and overall misconceptions. There are not many true TAGs at uNL. Most of them are TPA (tight passives).

People forget that 66% of TAG is the AG, or aggression. Just because you play a tight range of hands preflop doesn't mean you can't play with imagination and apply pressure to people postflop. One of the biggest winner in the stars 2/4 games plays like a 18/16 style (from what I've been told) but is a nightmare when he enters those 18% of hands.

Thus, a true 19/17/4 TAG is very different from the 19/15/1 players you see at uNL. There are MASSIVE misconceptions about the right way to apply aggression at the micros.

I don't offer individual coaching at this time, sorry.

QFT, hence the "nits" not TAG's in my post.
True, we could stay at that range and be a really good players if we learn to be "AG" but then again theres something about playing 30+ VPIP thats really appealing to me.
But thats another subject, lets stick to this one.

So what are the misconceptions?

Depends on the players, but 22 has pretty much no SD value on 89J. He's gotta take one shot then give up, otherwise he's c/fing, so we take down the pot anyway. And the fact is that on 89J your raising value range is wider than on K89, i don't think you call an UTG open w/ K8 or something...Whereas if he's weaktight he could very well fold his AJ on 89J 2t, or if he calls there are a lot of good barrels cards for you which will make him fold imo.

One that comes to mind ... "I can't believe he didn't fold! I was totally repping a set!"

Well my ooponents don't fold 3rd pair when I rep 2nd pair