From the "Moving Through uNL" thread:

I disagree with this, but want to break this topic down further. I truly feel that most uNL players will tell you that yes, position is important, yet they make so many plays which go counter to this (this is clear from videos that some of my uNL students have sent me, doing sweat sessions, and reading HH's that are posted). This makes me think that there is a fundamental lack of understanding about why position is important.

So, let's discuss this in the context of this specific example:

"Why is K8o going to show a profit IP vs. a generally loose/passive player, but will not OOP?"

I'm curious to see what people come up with. I always learn a lot myself through these discussions.

Note: If you are the next Tom Dwan (If only you didn't run so bad! It's sick!) and know that you could for sure play K8o profitably both IP and OOP, find a hand which fits the question above, let me know what it is, and why it would show a profit IP but not OOP.

I like verneer. This will be a good thread.

oop you're just gonna be forced to c/f a lot of turns when you whiff the flop, cbet, and get called. also when you do flop a pair you're going to be pretty lost when you double barrel and get called twice.

ip you can often check behind boards that aren't good to cbet and take it away on the turn if villain still shows weakness. ip it's also easier to decide how many streets of value you would like when you make your hand.

It's just harder to maintain control of the hand OOP than it is IP.

I'll try an explanation. Against a loose player who we think will call cbet very light and not fold to a lot of DB we aren't going to DB a lot (if any). That is the premise and the reason why some would say it doesn't matter whether we are ip or OOP.

There are 2 basic scenarios.

1) we miss

IP we have more options. If it is a dry flop we can cbet and hope to take it down if he whiffs completely. Even fish are less likely to call with air (GS bdfd etc) OOP than IP.
If we cbet and he calls we often get to see all 5 cards and can hit river. OOP the villain Will make us fold our air if he has anything when we check unless he is super super passive but in my experience most of them aren't that passive. When you check to them after cbetting they will bet even second pair albeit normally smallish.

We can also check behind flop and bet turn if checked to twice.

2) if we hit we will normally have a medium strenght hand. Second pair on J83ss or top pair weak kicker on KJT4ccss or somethng similar. IP we can control the size of the pot by checking some flops and turns behind and even bluffcatching rivers if the fish is prone to bet his missed draws. Even if he i isn't we can vbet very thinly on the river with 2nd or third pair if we checked behind turn after cbetting and villain checked brick river to us. OOP we have to bet river blindfolded if we want to get value. OTOH if we check twice to even somewhat passive fish and they have air from a missed draw, they can bet and we have to decide whether to call with our second pair or not.

All in all when we are likely to flop either a medium strenght hand or air, being IP helps us control whether there is betting on 2 or 3 streets and gives us info on the hand strenght of the villain so we can decide how thinly to vbet. When we miss we can normally see one more card than we could OOP by checking behind flop or cbetting and checking behind turn. Also villain is more likely to fold his air.

The thing is, passive players usually don't bet without a hand, so having to check/fold the turn without a hand isn't that bad.

I think the main issue with my reasoning is, like I mentioned in the main thread, that there are several gradations of passive players and that we need a really good read to conclude position doesn't matter against him, thus allowing us to make our isolating and/or raising as wide as in position.

Maybe a couple of more things to consider. Generally, when we are in position to a loose passive player, there are less or no players behind us. This way it's easier to get headsup.

Say, if we raise CO with BTN being our loose passive target, there's a big chance one of the blinds comes along or squeezes. We don't want that to happen when we're raising Q7s.

But if it's the other way around, the blinds won't come along nearly as much.

A tip I got from a video to make your positional disadvantage as small as possible: check a lot of flops to them when you are out of position and don't have a hand. If he checks behind you can usually take the pot down on one or two streets.

In the hand, Jk3a advices to check a KQX flop to a passive straightforward player after raising UTG and being called by MP. He said the best play is to check, and bet any turn and most rivers when flop gets checked trough. I think he had Ax, probably AT.

(You can also check the flop behind when you are IP to get the same kind of information.)

Generally I think 3 points matter:

1) Position facilitates pot control. If you enter a pot with K8, being able to control the size of the pot is going to be an issue with the vast majority of the hands you make. Having said this pot control with marginal hands is never a massive issue vs passive players, but it doesn't hurt.

2) You're going to win more pots when you haven't hit. Again not a major concern with passive players, but even some players who fall under the label of "loose/passive" will occasionally fire air when checked to on the flop or turn, or less occasionally float a cbet in position and fire the turn when checked to. Example: You Raise Q8s OTB with a "loose/passive" caller in the BB, flop is 237r. Whether you cbet or not, improve or dont improve, you're more likely to win this pot as BTN vs BB than CO vs BTN. (EDIT: also I forgot to mention getting to showdown when unimproved with hands like Q8/K8 etc against loose passive players is very important because we're crushing their pre flop calling range and if they dont improve K or Q high will often be good enough to win at showdown)

3) I'm going to struggle to articulate this one, but I think it's the most important point (given the nature of the villain) so I'll try. Basically it's easier to "value own" loose/passive villains IP. If I'm holding K8o and the board develops 2d7d8h Qs 3d It's going to be a lot easier for me to value bet 3 streets against a loose calling station IP. (EDIT: The ability to extract value vs these villains when we're ahead of there range is massively important, the way we make money off these players is by being able to value bet them to death). Playing OOP I wont extract as much value/wont have the best hand as much when I do "value" bet, etc etc. Yeah I know that's a crap explanation but it's the best your getting

I think these points are pretty interwoven, also I'm sure there's things i missed out, but those are the basic reasons in my mind.

Also I do think, although it is uncommon, that there are spots at the micros where playing K8o OOP is +EV

'Buck

it's not true that passive players don't bet without a hand. they don't RAISE without a hand, though. trust me fish will often do nonsensical things like making those annoying gay bets with gutshots/bottom pair when they have position on you.

Exactly fish are still capable of semi aggressive plays when IP. Your point about them making nonsensical bets with weak holdings when checked to is important too. I've seen players I'd describe as loose/passive bet 2 or 3 streets with bottom pair on the scariest board ever where every single draw has hit, where as OOP they'd just check call. If you have a TP hand in this scenario being IP is massively +EV

In general it's always better to be in position because you're last to act and it's much easier to control the size of the pot in position, especially vs a passive player.
Against a loose passive player I gladly bet 2 streets with TPBK (flop and turn on drawy board, flop and river on dry board), but their average range after a third street with action usually > TPBK. With middle pair I try to get one or two streets of value, depending on the opponent. I can check behind the flop, bet or call the turn and re-evaluate(usually fold vs loose passive) or check river.
It's pretty easy to pot control in position, as I said earlier, and it's hard to do OOP because you're always guessing if your opponent will bet/raise or not. So this is why I prefer position, especially with marginal hands.

Why exactly it sucks to have K-rag OOP instead of something else? I suppose you're going to have kicker-problems if you flop top pair or pair problems if you flop middle pair. About the kickerproblem: if you have AK on a dry K/A-high board, you just bet 3 streets and (usually) fold vs a raise, but with K8 you very well might be valuetowning yourselve against K9-KQ. If your opponent is genuinely loose passive though, and will rarely raise or bet with top pair+ I don't see a big problem, just estimate his calling range on each street and bet for value if it's profitable. (theoretically speaking, because I never actually estimate the equity I have against a range, major leak detected: yay!). Your profit shouldn't be a lot less against a loose passive player, in or out of position.

My thinking obviously needs improvement, so all input is welcome. I guess OP is going to make a good point about why it's much more profitable to be IP and I'm completely ready to have my eyes opened.

+1

This. Those passives who bet almost never are very rare. When OOP with even AJ on 832r it's not once and twice that a loose passive fish has vbet me 3 streets with 3x or similar. Their betsizes are so small that you are forced to call
because on the flop your A high might be good, on the turn his 1/7th pot bet is giving me the odds and on the river when he bets 1/10th of the pot I spazzcall with A high. You can't raise either because he doesn't have a fold button.

So although the passives normally vbet small, play their draws passive and never raise withouth the nuts they do normally bet when checked to. They make those small feeler bets but you still can't raise them off a bottom pair so you are forced to either call and ope to hit or fold.

good post bro, this whole thread is NICE.
I like your thoughts on IP but how bout a full explanation on OOP?

I think it doesn´t matter if the fish uses his positon against us. What I mean by that is, that isn´t the maine reason why we don`t want to play K8o OOP. Lets say flop is K37 we have TPWK, we bet our hand and opponent calls, he might have K with better kicker or he might have absolutely nothing, so now we don`t know what is the best option for us to bet or to check, on the turn with J on the board. Lets say we bet, (1) opponent calls now again we don`t know were are we, we might be ahead, meaning the bet was good or we might be a big underdog, meaning we are just giving our money away. Now lets say opponent raises our bet, we have to fold, beacause of the weak kicker, but he might have nothing, meaning the fold was bad. We can call, too, but then there is a chance that we are a big underdog. So basicaly everytime we act the opponent is one step ahead of us.
So I think the maine reason why we don`t want to play K8o OOP against whatever kind of player is that we have less information to put a player on a hand than we do IP. We can´t actually know were we are in any given moment, of course there are some exceptions when player is showing weakness or he has some big tells etc. But in general opponent has an edge, and it doesn`t actually matter if he is aware of it himself or not.

Idk which stakes this video was about. But on a flop like this I would bet 3 streets against a passive calling station. Against a semi-tight semi-competent (VPIP ~30) guy a check is probably okay, but not against a uNL fish (VPIP 40+) imo.

FYP

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TBH a lot of the more marginal hands can still probably be played profitably even OOP to passive players. The problem people have is that love to cbet too much and are afraid to vbet lightly. If people could c/f more often when they whiff and try to get max value when they hit, they would do much better.