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Old 12-29-2007, 07:47 PM   #1
monkeymaps
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Unhappy ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $43.00
CO: $27.40
BTN: $24.55
Hero (SB): $25.00
BB: $24.65
UTG: $21.60

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with K K
UTG raises to $0.75, MP raises to $1.25, CO calls $1.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $4.50, 2 folds, MP calls $3.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($11.25) 8 A 7 (2 players)
Hero ?

Villan is new to the table but playing loose and semi agro seems like a bad player. Villan INSTA 3 bets pre and then INSTA calls our 4 bet.

Flop plan?

a) c/f
b) c/c
c) cbet/ shut down if called, fold to a raise
d) ?

c is my standard play here but im curious how others play this
I give villan a range of AQs+ and JJ?+ (opinions welcome)


do you play this any different agianst say standard reg thats say 20/13/2?
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Old 12-29-2007, 07:52 PM   #2
Bdizzle
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

****ty flop but I think you have to cbet it. After insta 3betting and insta 4 betcalling here, I could foresee an insta fold to something like a $9 cbet here. You can't check call unless you're willing to take it to the felt on the turn. Check folding is real weak here and imo not a good play. It sucks but yeah, Id say standard cbet and fold to his push though often when I find players doing this rapid fire stuff preflop they don't have much.
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Old 12-29-2007, 07:59 PM   #3
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Since he instacalled I put him on TT-QQ, maybe AK.
c) is standard for me. I will often see the river if I feel he would raise most aces on the flop but he just calls instead. If we check the turn he'll often start vbetting JJ+ and we can c/c from these on profitably imo. You'll feel silly to see Ax after two calls though.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:00 PM   #4
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

c-bet but with pot control/blocking bet

c-bet $6, obv fold to a push/RR

2nd barrel an A, K turn or diamond
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:01 PM   #5
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

I think we're way behind here. He three bets preflop with two raisers and a caller to act behind him, just screams bullets to me. That said, I go with option c as well, but probably not for $9, if hes gonna fold to $9, I bet he folds to $5 and if he's gonna re-raise he'll reraise either.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:03 PM   #6
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

lol, MTC, you could have just quoted me for your first post here

also, Welcome
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:05 PM   #7
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

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Originally Posted by P1zza_Man View Post
lol, MTC, you could have just quoted me for your first post here

also, Welcome

Sorry, I was typing as you were posting, didn't see your post till I posted.

Thanks for the welcome.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:08 PM   #8
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

c). I think bet/folding some amount around 6-9 is standard.
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:03 PM   #9
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

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Originally Posted by MTClip View Post
I think we're way behind here. He three bets preflop with two raisers and a caller to act behind him, just screams bullets to me. That said, I go with option c as well, but probably not for $9, if hes gonna fold to $9, I bet he folds to $5 and if he's gonna re-raise he'll reraise either.
his range is definitely wider than AA but other than that i agree with you and pizzapizza
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:35 PM   #10
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Pot-sized 4-bet preflop is ~$6. With that raise then you'll have about a pot-sized bet left and will be able go all-in on any flop. Then the best way to get value from a range of JJ+, AQ+ is to c/rAI I think.

As played you didn't build a big enough pot pre-flop and should probably b/f.
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:46 PM   #11
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

The ace definitely sucks, but I would still bet here- probably around $7.50. Your re-raise could always represent AKs, so if your villain has a weaker ace, he may fold to that bet, but if you get action, you can always leave. It is worth trying to take the pot down right here, even with the ace showing.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:09 PM   #12
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

As played, I would normally go with C, like most everybody else who posted.

However, I think the main issue here is preflop. With that much action, being out of position for the rest of the hand, and having read the CO for being a loose, bad player, you should have built a bigger pot imo. With a raise, re-raise to 1.25 and then a call (all by players who will position on us for the rest of the hand), I would opt for making a larger raise here. We should be happy to take this hand down preflop, and making a raise to $6+ makes sense. There is also a case for pushing all-in, as you'll see (and get called by) JJ, QQ, AQ, AK and some worse.
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Old 12-29-2007, 11:17 PM   #13
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Make the same bet you would make if you had AK here. I'd probably be betting 7ish
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:03 AM   #14
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

If we go with OP's range of {JJ+, AQ+}, I think we may well be behind that range now...all those A combos have us beat, while we are only ahead of the 12 JJ/QQ combos. I think even widening the range to include TT leaves us in poor shape. Maybe adding a weird KQ or SC might change it a bit.

While a cbet often gets called by the JJ/QQ, that leaves us open to being absolutely clueless on the turn...Keep betting into him? Or check and have to call/fold? Or check praying for a check behind? Or crai a diamond? All those options sound unpleasant.

Unfortunately c/c kinda leaves us in the same position, but I don't think it's awful, as he'll stab without the A a lot and I find it unlikely he'll db his JJ/QQ too often when we call.

That leaves c/f lol. Being a life nit, I really don't mind folding to a chunky bet here. Getting bluffed off my hand here by JJ/QQ once in a blue moon isn't the end of the world considering:

> The A won't always flop
> When it flops rags we stack villain often
> He won't always bet without the A
> We have made money preflop already
> Meh, sometimes good hands turn to mush

Overall, I go c/f>c/c>>>>>>>b/f>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>b/c

Bit drunk, so hope I still agree with myself in the morning.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:21 AM   #15
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddi View Post
Pot-sized 4-bet preflop is ~$6. With that raise then you'll have about a pot-sized bet left and will be able go all-in on any flop. Then the best way to get value from a range of JJ+, AQ+ is to c/rAI I think.

As played you didn't build a big enough pot pre-flop and should probably b/f.
I don't totally disagree with you about preflop but im not sure if is the most ev line to take? and taking the line that makes it easy to play post flop but might always the best way to go...

I mean rasing to 6 preflop only makes about a ~4 diff in pot size so Im not sure how much diff that makes in how I play the hand postflop. as played I can barely bet fold the flop and even then its thin.

and its not like im trying to shut the guy out of the hand I have a huge equity edge agianst villans assumed range (bad player) so im not looking to take this down preflop a push seems stupid the guys 3 bet was only a min raise.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:48 AM   #16
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

I check call postflop like almost 100% of the time. If he bombs turn again drop it. The thing about betting here at this level is I feel like it folds out a lot of the hands you want value from. By checking you give him a chance to bluff and if it checks through its usually pretty easy to get value from underpairs on later streets.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:58 AM   #17
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Agree with last poster, the four bet is a tad small.. Since villain is new to the table option c is most viable.. Against a ultra-passive player a check might be a good way to get cheap info, but against most I don't like it...
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:28 AM   #18
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomp View Post
While a cbet often gets called by the JJ/QQ, that leaves us open to being absolutely clueless on the turn...Keep betting into him? Or check and have to call/fold? Or check praying for a check behind? Or crai a diamond? All those options sound unpleasant.

Unfortunately c/c kinda leaves us in the same position, but I don't think it's awful, as he'll stab without the A a lot and I find it unlikely he'll db his JJ/QQ too often when we call.
Are there more than 5 people in the world at 25NL who are calling QQ/JJ on that flop, and then turning it into a bluff on the river?
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:35 AM   #19
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Raise more preflop to 30bb since you don't have a read on Villain other than that he is assumed bad. He has 172bb stack and is new to the table. How did that pot play or pots play? It's a weird 3bet raising UTGs 3bb bet to 5bb. A BIG raise and a shove should do it, he will then be calling with only weaker pairs and maybe AQ and AK if he is looking for variance. Maybe we loose value to a fold but we wanna avoid this situation? we should have decided preflop if we wanna play for stacks vs Villain.
As played we have to c-bet and maybe 5 would do it he folds if he doesn't have the ace or made a set we fold to a reraise on the flop. If he calls then we have to check turn or else our hand becomes a bluff. Is he capable to bet the turn big enough to make us fold with a weak ace or any other pair? if not check down to show down or crai a small turn bet?
My two cents, and my first post in this forum. Basically i get lost in these spots vs this type of players that's why i wanna raise more until i have more of a read. The ace really sucks..
I am assuming he doesn't have us beat preflop because that small 3bet isn't big enough to isolate vs UTG.

Last edited by Liverdisaster; 12-30-2007 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:15 AM   #20
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymaps View Post
I don't totally disagree with you about preflop but im not sure if is the most ev line to take? and taking the line that makes it easy to play post flop but might always the best way to go...

I mean rasing to 6 preflop only makes about a ~4 diff in pot size so Im not sure how much diff that makes in how I play the hand postflop. as played I can barely bet fold the flop and even then its thin.

and its not like im trying to shut the guy out of the hand I have a huge equity edge agianst villans assumed range (bad player) so im not looking to take this down preflop a push seems stupid the guys 3 bet was only a min raise.
This is losing thinking. The main reason for making a pot-sized 3-bet is to stop your opponent from drawing (to e.g. sets) in 3,4-bet pots (or at least make it a mistake for him to do so). If you make small 3,4-bets you are announcing your hand AND letting your opponents play profitably against you.

Stop thinking of your hand as being invincible and start being satisfied with winning small pots with AA/KK. If you are making small raises to invite action you are asking for trouble, and you'll be getting it.
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:37 AM   #21
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

I'm convinced most villains will raise when they have an A and call/fold when they have a big pair. So we b/f flop c/c turn and c/c river. If he checks behind on the turn I might make a small bet on the river depending on villain.
If villain will call an A on this flop we're doomed of course. I'll make a note of that.
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Old 12-30-2007, 12:29 PM   #22
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

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Originally Posted by Eddi View Post
This is losing thinking. The main reason for making a pot-sized 3-bet is to stop your opponent from drawing (to e.g. sets) in 3,4-bet pots (or at least make it a mistake for him to do so). If you make small 3,4-bets you are announcing your hand AND letting your opponents play profitably against you.

Stop thinking of your hand as being invincible and start being satisfied with winning small pots with AA/KK. If you are making small raises to invite action you are asking for trouble, and you'll be getting it.
what is wrong with wanting to win a large pot with AA/KK? esp agianst a bad player. while a large raise preflop might be better its not because "I want to take it down right here" or " oo I might get into trouble" im pretty comfortable playing KK OOP agianst a bad player.

with your reasoning overbetting the pot so you opponent folds his flush draw is a "good" play because you "might get into trouble" when in fact your letting him play perfectly.

I also don't understand what you mean by saying that a 4 bet the size I made announces my hand? im making a four bet with the same range here regardless if I make it 4 bucks or 6. its not like it I make it 4 bucks villan will think I have a better hand than if I make it six... I don't get your thinking here
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Old 12-30-2007, 02:52 PM   #23
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

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Originally Posted by monkeymaps View Post
what is wrong with wanting to win a large pot with AA/KK? esp agianst a bad player. while a large raise preflop might be better its not because "I want to take it down right here" or " oo I might get into trouble" im pretty comfortable playing KK OOP agianst a bad player.

with your reasoning overbetting the pot so you opponent folds his flush draw is a "good" play because you "might get into trouble" when in fact your letting him play perfectly.

I also don't understand what you mean by saying that a 4 bet the size I made announces my hand? im making a four bet with the same range here regardless if I make it 4 bucks or 6. its not like it I make it 4 bucks villan will think I have a better hand than if I make it six... I don't get your thinking here
The point you're missing, is that you UNDERbet pre-flop. I'm not suggesting overbetting, I simply suggest making a pot-sized raise, which is NOT an overbet.

Yes, you certainly want to win big pots with KK/AA, but the way to achieve that is NOT by making inviting raises. What you want ideally with these hands is to at most see the flop, that's it. Any time you go further than flop means you have to be careful. However if you put most of your money in pre-flop and are left with a pot-sized bet on flop - you are always making a +ev play if you always shove on flop or call a shove. That's what your goal should be with those hands, having a big pot pre-flop, not after. And if there is a raise and a 3-bet in front of you - it means you hit gold - the ideal situation has happened, make at least a pot-sized raise!

Last edited by Eddi; 12-30-2007 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:09 PM   #24
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

Pf is fine, you more than tripled the bet. Its ridiculous to nit pick that imo.

My standard line here is to c/c flop and then c/f turn against an unknown, probably same against a reg too. If it goes check check on the flop, then I again go to c/c turn. If it checks again I value bet river. I dont see what betting accomplishes here at all. Betting may make the hand slightly easier to play but it by no means maximizes our EV. You fold out all of the hands you want in and everything else either calls or raises. Even assuming QQ/JJ does call the flop and you check the turn and river, there is a chance villain turns those hands into bluffs and pushes you off. But I really dont see a villain double barreling QQ/JJ unless hes a complete maniac. C/f isnt bad either but I would rather c/c one street and see what villain does on the turn.
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Old 12-30-2007, 05:19 PM   #25
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Re: ACE MAGNETS!! hand quiz

thanks thought I was going insane, I know I could have 4 bet bigger but seems like it would just fold out everything I crush I don't get the ZOMG bet huge preflop cause I might get into trouble post flop sentiment.... seems like your missing alot of value with that attitude. plus people are missing that a large % of the time im gonna stack villan when low cards flop.
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