[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37732981

BTN: $5.16 (103.2 bb)
SB: $5.16 (103.2 bb)
BB: $10.34 (206.8 bb)
UTG: $7.37 (147.4 bb)
MP: $7.52 (150.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $11.84 (236.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A Q
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN folds, SB raises to $0.45, BB folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.95) 6 2 7 (2 players)
SB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.15) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $0.97, Hero calls $0.97

River: ($4.09) Q (2 players)
SB bets $3.14 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.14


Think It's fairly standard up until the river, called turn as implied odds are great. Obviously calling shoves on all clubs, and aces, queens put me in a very tough spot vs a shove, thoughts?
(not sure whether I am supposed to call or fold this river)

Fold river. Seems like AA/KK.

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Any kind of read on villain?
Aggro? Passive?
Is villain firing 3 barrels with all of his overpairs?
3 AA , 1 QQ and 6 KK beats you. You Beat 6 TT and 6 JJ.
But imo, agaisnt unknown in 5NL it's a fold on the river... Can't imagine enogh JJ- in his range...
Also if he can gand read at all, you are pretty much capped exactly to what you have..

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wp

^^^

No reads, yeh I'm definitely leaning towards a fold OTR, some competent players are deffo going for river value w/ JJ, maybe even 1010 (at a push - especially at this stake), but I think a lot of players aren't shoving river without KK+. Think In this spot I would prefer to fold river, call on an Ace + clubs.

NOT WP

Hero calls $0.60> NO! insta RR OTF/gii

AP i fold river

glgl

dude what, calling is totally fine.

^ i guess but passive poker won-t get you too far

gotta be aggro my man

BTW turn call is a spew

glgl

Folding turn would be a blunder.

I take the same line as OP here.

Taking into account our great implied odds here turn is a pretty easy call IMO (vs this sizing), we are even almost getting direct odds on a turn call. IMO RR flop to GII is just gambling - OOP we can consider that line, IP I think floating is perfectly fine.

I also never raise over-pairs or sets here OTF so we are extremely imbalanced meaning V can massively exploit suggested line.

I would find it genuinely interesting to hear your thought process behind a flop raise, and why you think turn call is spewy? (aplogies to come off as defensive, I just disagree w/ suggested play/s!)

BTW I definitely agree that aggressive poker is far superior to passive poker, I just don't think we need to assert aggression in every possible spot, where a proper thought process + maths may indicate that a more 'passive' play (such as just calling as apposed to raising) is the more positive/+ev play.

idk i read somewhere (harrington on cash games) that you gotta be aggro with your draws. 2 ways to win the hand and all that.
I might even jam otf

turn is spewy because we r calling to hit w rev imp odds

i fold turn
fold turn > call turn > RR turn

glgl

I slightly updated previous comment, not sure if you checked it out.

What implied odds? the board is paired which means he can have/hit a FH I assume you mean? he practically has no combo's of FH's in his range (MAYBE at a push 67) + we have the NFD meaning we would hit the strongest flush (no rev impl odds vs stronger FD's), the only real rev imp odds we have are if he hits his FH on the club to complete our flush. For example on the Jc, he could hit a FH w/ JJ, but this would give him just 3 combo's of that hand - also this is just one of our outs. I guess we can have rev impl odds on a Q, but as I put in a comment I think I made an incorrect play calling riv on this card. We have practically no reverse implied odds if we are folding queens.

And yes I agree that in a lot of spots it is good to play your draws aggressively, but we still need a range of hands to take certain lines (for example we can only raise OTF with FD's and other draws, if we also raise some sets/2 pair combo's etc. - this is obviously assuming we want to play good, balanced, hard to exploit poker).

I've read quite a few of Harrington's books on tourney's (renowned as some of his best I believe), and tbh they are fairly outdated when comparing them to today's games. Don't get me wrong they are certainly helpful, but you may have to take some of those older books on poker w/ a pinch of salt (not that playing draws aggresively is bad advice, just that it depends on the situation etc). I could be wrong, perhaps he has released others in more recent years.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciative the reply and suggestions, these conversations are helpful for developing thought processes, cheers.

he can have 22, 66 and 77
lots of villains 3bet pre in this spot instead of calling to set mine because they fear a sqz from the BB

We need to have a measured well timed aggression. Obv aggression is not the answer to every spot.

I certainly appreciative the reply and suggestions, these conversations are helpful for developing thought processes, cheers. > Same here

these convos are great because no one interrupts no one and you can think and rethink and even edit what you say.


glgl

FYP

Not sure that a lot of V's are 3 betting 22, 66 and 77, especially at these micro stakes. Has only 1 combo of 66, plus your argument that shoving is better than calling due to rev impl odds doesn't make a tremendous amount of sense - when V has FH's I am going to get away w/ losing less more often with calling two streets (and folding river if draw busts and V continues aggression) vs shoving flop/turn.

huh?

fixed your post

I think this is a really interesting post with some insights from both parties to how to play a slightly more passive line vs aggressive line, which is super fascinating.

When I first look at this hand I look at the first thing we open 3bb and get 3bet to 9bb so need to call 6bb to win 19bb 33%ish, vs a SB 3bet range vs BTN AQs is top of range here for sure and I'd look to mix in a few 4bets depending on opponents here to reduce how often they can 3bet here especially if they are doing it with all their lower PP as some of you said that would increase their overall 3bet range. But flatting is fine too I think and we go to the flop in position which is nice. It keeps all our lower PP, sc, suited broadways, and depending on how far you defend some suited AX, and SOG. For me I think I have something like QQ-77, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, KQo - which is the whole range and maybe even slightly wider but this is just for discussion sakes, thats 152 combos here

Flop we see a bet of 2/3 pot and think that both arguments here are pretty neat to be honest. Obviously in the past I would of been just purely thinking about calling here no hesitation we have 2 overs, NUT FD, A high and are still in position. But thinking about or range here as a whole I'm probably calling here with most of that range about 1 half. From what I was trying to think We can maybe raise QQ/JJ and even then do we do it when we have club of each and preferably I'm calling those hands (but just put that as a value raise for discussions sake). After that for me raising cbets as a semi bluff with our combo drawing fds and weaker AX combos where even if we hit our 2nd card we cant feel that confident with that made hand. so thinking like AcJc, AcTc, Ac9c, Jc9c, Tc9c, Tc8c, 98s (maybe even like JcTc, QXcc KXcc but unsure *edit after the post cause i'm still thinking about it, I'm not super confident obviously but wanted to write up what I was thinking happy to hear all thoughts around how **** my thinking is of course*) . Obviously would like to see what you think of this part of my thinking, because the flop seems to be the most controversal. I think I we are raising any fd here we would have to have some value raises to balance or else we would be bluff raising too much here and as such our opponents could very much change to exploit that. Whilst some are happy to raise and gii Nut fd here are you happy with all fds? and whats the value range balance here?

Turn 6 hearts I think if we called flop we call turn if we raised flop and they called we can choose to bet again at which point we'd probably be shoving with over pairs, 77, 67, 89s, and our nutfd and other fds we choose.

River as played calling losing to 9 combos of overpairs, 3 combos of 77, QQ, beating 12 combos AK, JJ, 89s, KcQc, and his fds ??


I actually really like those who brought the idea of raising here on the flop, cause I don't do it much at all but think we could value with doing a few different things. That being said I think being over aggressive doenst necessarily mean +ev (and by all means tell me im wrong/bad/stupid I would love to hear it).
As played probably calling down but raising gii for me some of my weaker fds and QcQ/JcJ to balance here

He actually never has 22, 77 there??

OP, I think it was played fine. Maybe can find a fold if you have stats on this guy that indicate he's pretty tight and doesn't triple barrel but I would generally call and close eyes and hope

Thanks for the input, definitely some interesting stuff here.
My argument is still that I am going to have no raising range OTF - w/ SPR's, flop texture, ranges and the action pre, aswell as position, there is no hand, for value or as a bluff that I like to raise as it quickly becomes hard to balance.
Having no raising range is by no means a bad thing.
This line of thought mostly originates from the fact that I HATE raising over-pairs in this spot, as well as sets and two-pairs (vs such a wide c-betting range, it just seems like we lose masses of value), and if I massively dislike raising hands for value I simply cant raise hands as a bluff/semi-bluff. (vs his range of hands, without considering balancing/exploitation I'd strongly consider raising some draws here, but when considering balancing I'm just not happy making the play - I realise I sound like a broken record at this point!).
I am certainly open to changing line's and incorporating new plays into my game, although this one just doesn't make enough sense to me.

As you mentioned, definitely has been useful/interesting to explore lines (focusing OTF) in this hand. Cheers.