weee nice post.

clearly we've identified the area where we disagree - how much we win when he cbets into us. i've chosen to split that up into what i see as difficult and fairly easy situations (overcard flopping/not flopping) but i admit thats a little subjective.

basically you are saying we we can win 60% of pots where he cbets (given a 70% cb freq)? i am a little sceptical but i'd like to see what others think about this number and whether that's achievable.

I certainly am going to 3bet with JJ more often than I did before this thread. Nice of leatherass to stop by.

Can someone just post 20 hands or so of how they played JJ (vs solid TAGs if you can), and then we can analyze the individual scenarios and what may have been the optimal play. I think this may help alot to figure out what's best.

Np sir.

its not about how you play JJ. its about how you play your range as a whole. 3betting with any hand is optimal by far in this situation, but you can't do it at a 100% frequency.

.

This thread had probably run its course, but anyway
Looking through my latest database, through 30,000 hands, I have maybe 15 hands where I was in the button and had JJ with a raise in front of me. Here is every single time I have cc'd with JJ on the button over the last 30,000 hands, plus some 3bets thrown in. I seem to have 3bet JJ at least twice as much as I have cold-called over this sample, but I didn’t bother to check villains’ stats so I don’t know why I have chosen to cold-call or 3bet. When I have 3bet, villains have called about 1/3 of the time and folded about 2/3.


1a. Here are 3 hands where we get the value we hope for when we 3bet.
Party Poker $25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $25.00
CO: $22.01
Hero (BTN): $26.25
SB: $31.09
BB: $25.15

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with J J
1 fold, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, CO calls $2

Flop: ($6.35) 2 2 3 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $4, CO folds

1b.
Cryptologic $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $51.50
BB: $66.25
UTG: $26.03
Hero (CO): $57.40
BTN: $85.70

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J J
UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $5.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $3.50

Flop: ($11.75) Q 6 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG folds

1c
Cryptologic $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $51.50
BB: $66.25
UTG: $26.03
Hero (CO): $57.40
BTN: $85.70

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J J
UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $5.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $3.50

Flop: ($11.75) Q 6 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG folds


2a. Here cold calling is probably +EV, since villain probably doesn’t call a 3bet with any hand he folds on this flop.
Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $42.25
UTG: $50.00
MP: $98.90
CO: $62.30
Hero (BTN): $52.75
SB: $60.35

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with J J
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 3 8 2 (2 players)
UTG bets $3, Hero raises to $10, UTG folds


2b. Here I think villain folds to 3bet pf and I lose some value.
Party Poker $25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): $40.26
BTN: $23.30
SB: $29.29
BB: $17.35
UTG: $22.49

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J J
UTG raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) 7 2 Q (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1, SB folds

Turn: ($4.50) 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3, UTG folds

2c. Here is a hand where if villain folds to my 3bet pf, it would have been very –EV. But based on the way villain played this hand, they may not be folding pf.
Party Poker $25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $18.55
UTG: $37.58
MP: $25.48
CO: $38.43
Hero (BTN): $24.65
SB: $61.19

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with J J
UTG raises to $1.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($3.35) 9 4 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $4, Hero raises to $12, UTG calls $8

Turn: ($27.35) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $12, Hero calls $11.15 all in

River: ($49.65) A (2 players - 1 is all in)




3. Here is the worst thing that can happen when you 3bet JJ:
Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $18.90
MP: $50.00
Hero (CO): $50.00
BTN: $72.15
SB: $49.00
BB: $68.50

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with J J
1 fold, MP raises to $2, Hero raises to $6, 3 folds, MP raises to $17, 1 fold



4. With TT, but could have been JJ If I 3bet pf and villain shoves, I lose less, but I think at NL50 many people don’t 4bet QQ, in which case I think I lose at least as much if I 3bet pf. If I wasn’t such a station, I can lose a lot less, and one problem with cc-ing here is that my hand is under-repped so it is hard for me to fold. As played, if I raise the flop "to see where I stand" and fold to a 3bet, I lose as much as I did by calling all 3 streets, but I don’t get a showdown. I was probably folding to a real river bet, but getting 5:1 I couldn’t fold.

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $46.85
Hero (CO): $46.40
BTN: $22.55
SB: $13.05
BB: $53.00

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with T T
UTG raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 3 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 5 8 J (2 players)
UTG bets $3.25, Hero calls $3.25

Turn: ($11.25) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $7, Hero calls $7

River: ($25.25) 2 (2 players)
UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6

A)3 bet for value vs his range
B)call
C)fully feel based and history might lead me to choosing fold call or 3 bet
C)KQs 3bet or call depending on past history but I like 3 betting high cards
D)call
E)fold generally

I'm gonna post more out of curiosity of how the game has changed in the last year~2

a) I'd rarely 3bet Jacks here. I 3bet bluff quite alot and getting 4bet bluffed in this spot really sux balls esp given how nitty the field these days. People will also flat alot and c/r bluff you on low card flops (half of them), or you will have to check behind on high card flops (half of them) after which they can just barrel you off because they know you know a CO's range for calling a 3bet 'should' be pretty tight (and KK/AA heavy, again, I heavily 3bet light). Finally, there's the issue of balancing your calling range against squeezers, which you should be happy to get it in with. I would never 3bet JJ vs a UTG or MP raise, unless they were like 40+/30+ and called like every 3bet.

b) Call or 3bet depending on how likely you are to get squeezed

c) Call all day, calling squeeze is a preference / feel thing

d) Call except vs single digit PFR. Calling squeeze is a preference / feel thing

e) 3bet except vs single digit PFR

f) 3bet except vs single digit PFR

JJ: 3bet
77: call
AJo: fold
KQs: 3bet
JTs: call/fold
87s: fold

a) JJ- flat call. I don't want a 4bet if 3bet him though unlikely. Also get more value from a good flop and him Cbetting.
b) 77- definately call, unless he's been doing it often from the CO. Love calling this hand as if you hit your set often you will win big.
c) AJo- probably call. don't like the hand that much as it can lead to trouble.
c) KQs -Probably should flat call, but always love to 3bet with this hand, just so you take the lead in the pot, plus you don't have a hard decision if he 4bets.
d) JTs- call. I would be calling this one and 87s purely due to having position and hope to hit some kind of draw, or top pair.
e) 87s- ""

Surely this is a bad example as most people (me) would not be calling turn or river, with a raise UTG you dont win against many triple barrells with JJ, unless playing 0.01/0.02

really great bump