I don't think you are losing as much value in the long run as you are claiming. When you start 3-betting the CO a lot he is usually going to open his range way up and go on tilt +++EV.

Aside from that, it's really only going to be profitable calling to hit a set vs a villain that is really tight and is going to play back at most flops. Someone who is relatively loose on the button is not going to pay you off when you hit your set often enough to expect better value over just 3-betting pre.

I don't think calling implies you are only playing to flop a set. We have position and can also make plays at the pot postflop.

The question actually pre-supposed a villain who was raising a wide-range pre-flop, but against a villain who was sufficiently tight it would obviously be correct to only play for set value or fold if there were insufficient odds, although really there aren't too many villains you can be sure are that tight. Against the loose raiser we get to put a lot of pressure on postflop, rather than just playing for set value.

Any argument for or against calling is going to need to take into account our own image as well as CO's range. As given, we're told we have a tight image, which I think adds more support for calling than for 3-betting given a wide CO range, but I really think the difference in EV between the two can't be huge. The suited connectors are probably more interesting.

For those calling suited connectors, I'd be curious how they play the hand postflop.

ah ha!

basically raise flops where he is likely to have to fold to a raise.

all of them for sure. and alot more. just keep mashin until he adjusts

LOL!!! You can net way more when you call here and if you can't you are terrible at poker.

EDIT: Most of you guys saying you three bet them all please try to explain why you are raising them and why raising>calling.OP wanted a discussion on the subject not one line answers on how you all spew your chips away and 3bet every hand against a tag with no reason.

That's just on the preflop play. If he calls, you've got a 50BB pot, and you're more than likely getting it in on favorable flops. There's the times you hit a J and stack TPTK or overpair hands. Or, you let him fire with AK whiffed, or TT.

wow we raise to hit a J and stack of TPTK or over pairs thats a good way to play.I don't feel like arguing about it because your reasoning is ridic.

No, you're completely taking my reasoning out of context. I never said we raise to hit a J. I showed what our equity preflop against his likely ranges were. Postflop equity depends on his tendencies, how often he's stacking off with TPTK, overpair. Which with pot size, is going to be 100%, or close to it.

So, 7% of the time, we win 75BB in addition to our preflop equity - so, an additional 5BB. 1.5% of the time, he'll have an overpair. If he's just calling, and the flop comes up rags, which it's going to be, say, 35% of the time, you're going to be ahead against an aggressive player at least 3.5% of the time vs. being behind 1.5%. There, you're netting 1.5BB.

So our overall equity is roughly 8.5BB on average every time we re-raise PF.

I do not 3bet Jack's often unless I think he will call me with a lower pocket pair, so I probably do it around 50% or less of the time. I never 3bet pocket sevens and mostly just call to take it away later. I never 3bet AJo since he will very rarely call me with a hand I dominate. I probably 3bet the next three slightly less than pocket jacks, or around 30% of the time. most of the time I am looking to flop some sort of draw or combination to raise over top of opponents flop bet.

We kill our equity when we three bet here.Thats it drop your silly math here please.

How do we kill our equity?

How about a discussion about where I'm going wrong, instead of just insisting you're right without showing an argument.

what worse hands is he calling a three bet?remember villian is a solid TAG.With simply calling we can get more value out of our jacks simply because we are ahead of their range.

BTW I made a long post saying why we raise and why we call here didn't you read it?if you did then what arguments you disagree with and what arguments you have to 3bet here?

He's calling with TT, AK, AQ, probably even 99, 88. He's RAISING QQ+, maybe AK. If he re-raises, I stated in my second post in this topic, instafold, his range is way too tight, and we won't get the implied odds.

I've read two of your earlier posts, and from what I saw, you're assigning way too tight of a range for him just calling the 3-bet. If he has a bigger pair, he's getting all his money in preflop, most likely over the top of the min-raise. Like I said, that's only about 1.5% of the time.

you can't be serious, where you take your infromation?He is calling AQ, 88+ and raising QQ+, AK+? this isn't a solid TAG this is an idiot who plays that way.Solid players will call here AK 50% of the time QQ+ and sometimes TT.Obviously its right to 3bet if he is 4betting everything which beats us and calls only with worse hands but thats very unlikely here.

Don't think this is true in regard to calling with 99 and 88. These are extremely hard to play OOP in a reraised pot. Don't think we can assume that he will auto call these hands.

He may choose to 4bet AK and AQ, as calling with these OOP sucks. Now we either fold the best hand, or are in a coin flip, completely negating our positional adavantage.

Having said that, I'm still 3 betting JJ. He will be opening many rag aces, KT/QT and I'd rather not give him a free shot at outflopping us.

He's not autofolding just because you 3-bet him, unless he's been running you over consistently for like 15 orbits, and then you decide to re-pop him. He's a TAG, not a nit. I'm re-raising this like 75%, calling 25%, and that's based on factors like has he shut down after a lot of earlier steal attempts, and his numbers are padded from an earlier streak, or his recent actions on the table - is he steal-c-betting on auto pilot.

You don't fold all your steal attempts to a 3-bet, do you? I don't, and I think I'm probably too nitty.

fold then, he can out flop us always even if we shove here.

FWIW when I mined 5/10 (Jan 07) most of the TAGs there only three bet about 5-7% of their hands in late position. The 34/26 was only doing it 12% of the time in LP and blinds. The Tags folded to three bets 66% of the time on average and the lags around 50%. Those games are crazy aggressive too. Data came from RTHUD txt file.

Ok, we cant argue anymore you are taking our opponent as a donk and I'm not if he plays like you assume(which is really unlikely) then yes I three bet pretty much every hand here since he will 4bet all the better hands and call with speculative hands like middle pairs - pretty much his whole calling raise is tt-88 in your opinion.

I'm not folding out of fear of being outflopped.

Even if we assign an uber tight range on his call - being TT, QQ, AK, we're 53% to win and there's dead money out there.

It wasn't towards you.

Speaking of higher stakes, there's an interesting HSNL thread that turns into a discussion of 3-betting, although in this case it's OOP and deep. Still some interesting ideas:

2 hands vs cts, 1 deep

I play slightly tighter than the range in OP, so I know the range the guy's opening. And there's no way I'm folding everything but TT+, AK, when I'm getting 2.5:1 odds preflop, with that much behind.

I know and didn't take it that way, I just don't think it's solid advice to fold because we might get outflopped.

uh, a leak?yeah its a leak...read OP, no reason to bet him light, no previous 3betting history, Its dumb to call here with anything but QQ+ AK is morelikely a 4bet and fold then a call.