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2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop 2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop

03-25-2015 , 02:42 PM
Villain unknown.

Any feedback is appreciated but two primary questions:

Bet sizing ott ok?

What do we do otr?

[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $2.18 (109 bb)
Hero (BB): $2 (100 bb)
UTG: $4.38 (219 bb)
MP: $2 (100 bb)
CO: $4.78 (239 bb)
BTN: $2 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A J
2 folds, CO raises to $0.04, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, CO calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.25) 9 Q 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.13, CO calls $0.13

Turn: ($0.51) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, CO calls $0.20

River: ($0.91) 5 (2 players)
Hero ?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 03:21 PM
Never triple barrel bluff in 3 bet pots at 2nl. Words to live by my friend.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 03:24 PM
check river, you got better bluffs candidate

also bet bigger on all streets
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 03:37 PM
Bet sizing OTT is too small - Id make like 35c or somewhere around 3/4 pot. Flop sizing is alright following a 3bet I guess but seeing as it was small pf you can bet more here too. Just x/f the river to anything substantial.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 03:42 PM
$.20 into $.51 is far too small. It screams weakness imo.

The problem with your line is most of the time you miss the flop, you're OOP against what are usually sticky opponents. I burn so much money raising hands like these and then cbetting when i've missed only to have to give it up and let him take down a 30-50bb pot.

I would probably just call pre and evaluate, but i probably checkraise that flop. I feel that line has a better chance of winning the hand and obviously if he calls the c/r then we can improve with lots of cards.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
$.20 into $.51 is far too small. It screams weakness imo.

The problem with your line is most of the time you miss the flop, you're OOP against what are usually sticky opponents. I burn so much money raising hands like these and then cbetting when i've missed only to have to give it up and let him take down a 30-50bb pot.

I would probably just call pre and evaluate, but i probably checkraise that flop. I feel that line has a better chance of winning the hand and obviously if he calls the c/r then we can improve with lots of cards.
AJs is definately strong enough to 3 bet from the BB. At 2nl people will be calling vs 3 bets too wide, taking advantage of position poorly and playing 3 bet pots badly that it makes for a nice profitable situation.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-25-2015 , 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elz7777777
Bet sizing OTT is too small - Id make like 35c or somewhere around 3/4 pot. Flop sizing is alright following a 3bet I guess but seeing as it was small pf you can bet more here too. Just x/f the river to anything substantial.
+1
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eu.Era
AJs is definately strong enough to 3 bet from the BB. At 2nl people will be calling vs 3 bets too wide, taking advantage of position poorly and playing 3 bet pots badly that it makes for a nice profitable situation.
This isn't a given, it depends on the table.

Where i play anyway, most V's will call a flop bet with nothing and will call triple barrels with bottom pair.

Much easier just to wait to smash flops and then take their money than trying to 3bet OOP and hope they fold their trash post flop.

Obviously each site is different and has its different players but i personally would just flat and play the streets rather than trying to bloat OOP.

What do you think we should do when we miss against calling stations? Especially the kind who see you cbet, then check the turn and decide to mash the pot button?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
This isn't a given, it depends on the table.

Where i play anyway, most V's will call a flop bet with nothing and will call triple barrels with bottom pair.

Much easier just to wait to smash flops and then take their money than trying to 3bet OOP and hope they fold their trash post flop.

Obviously each site is different and has its different players but i personally would just flat and play the streets rather than trying to bloat OOP.

What do you think we should do when we miss against calling stations? Especially the kind who see you cbet, then check the turn and decide to mash the pot button?
In your game i would 3 bet AJcc and stack villains when they don't fold. I dont understand why them not folding in SRP isn't a good enough reason to start 3 betting a merged range and going to value town when you hit.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
This isn't a given, it depends on the table.

Where i play anyway, most V's will call a flop bet with nothing and will call triple barrels with bottom pair.

Much easier just to wait to smash flops and then take their money than trying to 3bet OOP and hope they fold their trash post flop.

Obviously each site is different and has its different players but i personally would just flat and play the streets rather than trying to bloat OOP.

What do you think we should do when we miss against calling stations? Especially the kind who see you cbet, then check the turn and decide to mash the pot button?
All your points are in favor of 3betting. Just because you 3bet doesn't mean you should cbet every flop.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:08 PM
Thanks for the replies guys.

I checked river and he checked behind with JJ.

As for the turn, I figured there would be many of the opinion that the sizing there is too small. But why is this the case? What is the benefit of a larger sizing? I get that in higher stake games that are more aggressive this sizing may show weakness and will see a raise often which sucks with this hand (but can be a good way of inducing with a stronger hand I guess), but in 2NL you just won't see so many raises here. That means the only pros of a larger bet size would be more fold equity (but I doubt it is much more) and a larger pot otr if we hit (but we don't always get paid off with a flush). So as I see it, this smallish sizing gives me a river card close to at the right pot odds, and still gives me a bit of fold equity. Reasonable?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:34 PM
Because the bet looks so weak I think that your fold equity is close to zero. Unless the villain has seen you bet this much with very strong hands too, in which case you're probably missing a lot of value. Think about it from his position, would you bet so small if you had AQ when there is a flush draw on the board? It doesn't look like you have a good hand.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 05:56 PM
Even if my fold equity is close to zero, then this is in effect a blocking bet where I set the price for drawing to my flush (and/or A or even J some of the time). Isn't that fine if your opponents don't punish it enough by raising?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neok
All your points are in favor of 3betting. Just because you 3bet doesn't mean you should cbet every flop.
I don't cbet every flop. It just seems to be a common occurence that when you miss OOP which is most of the time it's hard to get folds out of sticky opponents.

If we 3bet here and the board comes K25r and we cbet and get a call and the turn is a Q, what do we do then if V decides to take a shot at it? We have to pretty much fold unless we want to chase a T.

In position i'm fine with playing a bigger pot but i don't see any reason bloating it with what isn't the greatest hand pre. We're only like 60/40 favourite against QJo, do we really want to bloat it? I don't see the point when the V's at these levels are so much easier to stack.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 07:58 PM
I always hated the term blocker bet
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
Where i play anyway, most V's will call a flop bet with nothing and will call triple barrels with bottom pair.
Then this is like the fattest value 3-bet of all time.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
I don't cbet every flop. It just seems to be a common occurence that when you miss OOP which is most of the time it's hard to get folds out of sticky opponents.

If we 3bet here and the board comes K25r and we cbet and get a call and the turn is a Q, what do we do then if V decides to take a shot at it? We have to pretty much fold unless we want to chase a T.

In position i'm fine with playing a bigger pot but i don't see any reason bloating it with what isn't the greatest hand pre. We're only like 60/40 favourite against QJo, do we really want to bloat it? I don't see the point when the V's at these levels are so much easier to stack.
You don't see any reason bloating the pot when in your own words villains are easy to stack at this stake?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NL_Niels
As for the turn, I figured there would be many of the opinion that the sizing there is too small. But why is this the case? What is the benefit of a larger sizing?
Because you want to set up river jams for value. When you turn/river the nut flush and you've made tiny bets on previous streets you let whichever fish walk away with some money. And you should hate doing that.

Conversely, you're exerting less pressure with your bluffs. Now, if you think that fold equity won't change significantly, you could alter your bet sizes exploitatively by betting smaller when you're only expecting to get folds from air anyway, but that can quickly run into trouble by telegraphing your hand.

Given that we're primarily going to be value betting against fish, bigger is better.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-27-2015 , 05:08 PM
^^^

All right, good points, thx.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-27-2015 , 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eu.Era
You don't see any reason bloating the pot when in your own words villains are easy to stack at this stake?
I think there are easier spots.
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-27-2015 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vidar
I think there are easier spots.
There's no easier way to stack a fish than in a 3/4bet pot imo they play them that poorly and often go nuts
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote
03-27-2015 , 08:38 PM
What's easier than flopping top pair, barrelling all-in, and getting called by bottom pair?
2NL Zoom - AJs, flopped flush draw oop Quote

      
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