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Old 05-18-2017, 08:34 PM   #1
jimmyb23
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25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

No Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10
Winning Poker Network
6 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows

Villain: 23/18/3.44/6 (300 hands)

In this hand I tried to do a trap play with pocket QQ's.

I know my mistake, but did I play this correctly until I called the AI on the river?


Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($10.59)
MP - MP ($9.31)
CO - CO ($12.38)
BTN - BTN ($11.53)
SB - SB ($10.00)
BB - Hero ($15.63)

Preflop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is BB with Q Q
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15

Flop: 3 9 6 ($0.55, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35

Turn: J ($1.25, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80

River: 2 ($2.85, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.70, Hero raises to $3.90, BTN raises to $10.13 (all-in), Hero calls $6.23
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:05 PM   #2
AimHigher
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

You must reraise this in the big blind vs. a button raise
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:06 PM   #3
whitemares
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Originally Posted by jimmyb23 View Post
I know my mistake, but did I play this correctly until I called the AI on the river?
If you knew all the mistakes you made in this hand, you probably wouldn't be asking this.

Pre isn't good. If you are going to do that play for whatever reason though, I think you absolutely have to x/r the flop. As played, turn is fine, and river is a pretty clear x/c.

If you have some slam dunk reads that this guy is going to be opening really wide and firing all three streets at an extremely high frequency, then this isn't quite so bad. Even then I probably wouldn't x/r the river though.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:12 PM   #4
Hrmmmm
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
You must reraise this in the big blind vs. a button raise
He doesn't have to 3bet every QQ in BB.




I think a reg like the V usually has QQ beat when he re-raises the river. I don't think AJ is usually in a regs reraise range there, he is much more likely to call. I think most of the time Hero is going to feel like he has to call and is paying off Villain. It is a ****ty spot. You can fold this spot against a reg almost all of the time and save yourself $6. Of course, he usually gets a call because Hero doesn't think Villain will account for his overpair, but, like I said, a reg is not looking for fold equity here and isn't going to RR the river with TPTK. He's been beat by an overpair enough to not overvalue TPTK. This is a shove for value. This spot almost always gets called by Hero with an overpair, so against a reg you should understand that folding it is probably best.

Yes, it seems like you need to call because the strength of your hand in hidden, but you also need to know your competition. 23/18 regs just don't overraise there at Winning. He isn't going to risk it, pretty much ever, unless he really disrespects your raises.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:48 PM   #5
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

It's one thing to tell him he made a mistake... it's another to tell him why it is a mistake.

Alright- let's see what I can do for yaz.

Let's skip PF- you know the lack of RR is bad there- but then let's look at the flop and see what happens.

We have an overpair (most likely best hand) on a 3x9y6x board.

In this situation, there are a ton of hands that the button can raise with that have hit to improve- and a ton that can think they're good, and then later improve, and a ton that are not good now, but will improve.

Simply to say, we're in a precarious position, but one call is definitely good.

You have the option to raise here- but it's a terrible option because if he jams overtop, we're put to a decision for our stack with just a pair.

Folding is the worst of the 3 options.

Go ahead and call.

Turn comes making a few of his hands better than ours- but not many. Either way, things didn't really get much better for us unless he had like A6/AK. Most likely, he won't continue in the situation that he misses, and he will in the situation he's hit.

He continues.

At this point, Sets, two-pairs, and even big combo draws+riverbluffs give us tough situations. We're OOP with a bad hand.

I'd just go ahead and fold this turn... but I would have not played this hand like this at all. If our thought on the flop is to trap a spewy player that bets every street, then we should be calling him all the way and not worry about what comes. Assuming your plan was to just call-down with a big PF hand, I'm fine with calling here.

River comes and makes a straight draw come- but other than that, it's a pretty bricky deuce. Possibly 32s is now bigger than us. At this point, we want to just stick to our plan of check-calling (assuming this is a crazy ass player that just bets the farm every hand).

We check, he bets, and we raise.

This is the action that helped me try understand what you did and why. I think you believed that this player liked to just make big pots- regardless of their holdings.

Either way, our check is fine- our raise is not.

Why is our raise so terrible? There are no hands he has (even as a bluff) that he will jam (due to the flushdraw missing) unless he's beating us. So he's either ahead by a little, ahead by a lot, or we're ahead by a little.

Given his turn bet plus his sizing, I'd almost lean on him being ahead (possibly a set?) but that's a random ass stab in the dark.

Anyways, if he is a spewy player that just bets the farm every hand- this is a snap-call on the river. We missed our call and opened the door for our stack. We get it all in, and get the bad news.

Nice try, study more.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:08 PM   #6
cantor1987
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
It's one thing to tell him he made a mistake... it's another to tell him why it is a mistake.

Alright- let's see what I can do for yaz.

Let's skip PF- you know the lack of RR is bad there- but then let's look at the flop and see what happens.

We have an overpair (most likely best hand) on a 3x9y6x board.

In this situation, there are a ton of hands that the button can raise with that have hit to improve- and a ton that can think they're good, and then later improve, and a ton that are not good now, but will improve.

Simply to say, we're in a precarious position, but one call is definitely good.

You have the option to raise here- but it's a terrible option because if he jams overtop, we're put to a decision for our stack with just a pair.

Folding is the worst of the 3 options.

Go ahead and call.

Turn comes making a few of his hands better than ours- but not many. Either way, things didn't really get much better for us unless he had like A6/AK. Most likely, he won't continue in the situation that he misses, and he will in the situation he's hit.

He continues.

At this point, Sets, two-pairs, and even big combo draws+riverbluffs give us tough situations. We're OOP with a bad hand.

I'd just go ahead and fold this turn... but I would have not played this hand like this at all. If our thought on the flop is to trap a spewy player that bets every street, then we should be calling him all the way and not worry about what comes. Assuming your plan was to just call-down with a big PF hand, I'm fine with calling here.

River comes and makes a straight draw come- but other than that, it's a pretty bricky deuce. Possibly 32s is now bigger than us. At this point, we want to just stick to our plan of check-calling (assuming this is a crazy ass player that just bets the farm every hand).

We check, he bets, and we raise.

This is the action that helped me try understand what you did and why. I think you believed that this player liked to just make big pots- regardless of their holdings.

Either way, our check is fine- our raise is not.

Why is our raise so terrible? There are no hands he has (even as a bluff) that he will jam (due to the flushdraw missing) unless he's beating us. So he's either ahead by a little, ahead by a lot, or we're ahead by a little.

Given his turn bet plus his sizing, I'd almost lean on him being ahead (possibly a set?) but that's a random ass stab in the dark.

Anyways, if he is a spewy player that just bets the farm every hand- this is a snap-call on the river. We missed our call and opened the door for our stack. We get it all in, and get the bad news.

Nice try, study more.

As played by op You want to just check fold turn? Do you realise our under repped our hand is ?
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:07 AM   #7
whitemares
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
It's one thing to tell him he made a mistake... it's another to tell him why it is a mistake.
Of course it is. I don't have to spoon-feed information in every single one of my strategy posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
You have the option to raise here- but it's a terrible option because if he jams overtop, we're put to a decision for our stack with just a pair.
How often do you think this is going to happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
Most likely, he won't continue in the situation that he misses, and he will in the situation he's hit.
This is kind of a weird assumption to make. How can you assume that it's more likely that villain is only betting made hands here, especially given these positions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
We're OOP with a bad hand.
QQ on J963 isn't exactly towards the bottom of our range in this spot.

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Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
I'd just go ahead and fold this turn
Without some solid reads, there's no way folding has a greater EV than calling.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:01 AM   #8
Hrmmmm
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Folding the turn here would be strange.


While I think the OPs line isn't optimal and would work best against a LAG, I don't think it is wrong. In fact, I think it is a passive line that can balance out more aggressive lines. However, Hero is beat on this river. This is a very strong shove by Villain.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:53 AM   #9
ChipsNcrisps
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
It's one thing to tell him he made a mistake... it's another to tell him why it is a mistake.

Alright- let's see what I can do for yaz.

Let's skip PF- you know the lack of RR is bad there- but then let's look at the flop and see what happens.

We have an overpair (most likely best hand) on a 3x9y6x board.

In this situation, there are a ton of hands that the button can raise with that have hit to improve- and a ton that can think they're good, and then later improve, and a ton that are not good now, but will improve.

Simply to say, we're in a precarious position, but one call is definitely good.

You have the option to raise here- but it's a terrible option because if he jams overtop, we're put to a decision for our stack with just a pair.

Folding is the worst of the 3 options.

Go ahead and call.

Turn comes making a few of his hands better than ours- but not many. Either way, things didn't really get much better for us unless he had like A6/AK. Most likely, he won't continue in the situation that he misses, and he will in the situation he's hit.

He continues.

At this point, Sets, two-pairs, and even big combo draws+riverbluffs give us tough situations. We're OOP with a bad hand.

I'd just go ahead and fold this turn... but I would have not played this hand like this at all. If our thought on the flop is to trap a spewy player that bets every street, then we should be calling him all the way and not worry about what comes. Assuming your plan was to just call-down with a big PF hand, I'm fine with calling here.

River comes and makes a straight draw come- but other than that, it's a pretty bricky deuce. Possibly 32s is now bigger than us. At this point, we want to just stick to our plan of check-calling (assuming this is a crazy ass player that just bets the farm every hand).

We check, he bets, and we raise.

This is the action that helped me try understand what you did and why. I think you believed that this player liked to just make big pots- regardless of their holdings.

Either way, our check is fine- our raise is not.

Why is our raise so terrible? There are no hands he has (even as a bluff) that he will jam (due to the flushdraw missing) unless he's beating us. So he's either ahead by a little, ahead by a lot, or we're ahead by a little.

Given his turn bet plus his sizing, I'd almost lean on him being ahead (possibly a set?) but that's a random ass stab in the dark.

Anyways, if he is a spewy player that just bets the farm every hand- this is a snap-call on the river. We missed our call and opened the door for our stack. We get it all in, and get the bad news.

Nice try, study more.

No, you could have done better for that many words jesus.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:25 AM   #10
Karrlitos1
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuval View Post
It's one thing to tell him he made a mistake... it's another to tell him why it is a mistake.

Alright- let's see what I can do for yaz.

Let's skip PF- you know the lack of RR is bad there- but then let's look at the flop and see what happens.

We have an overpair (most likely best hand) on a 3x9y6x board.

In this situation, there are a ton of hands that the button can raise with that have hit to improve- and a ton that can think they're good, and then later improve, and a ton that are not good now, but will improve.

Simply to say, we're in a precarious position, but one call is definitely good.

You have the option to raise here- but it's a terrible option because if he jams overtop, we're put to a decision for our stack with just a pair.

Folding is the worst of the 3 options.

Go ahead and call.

Turn comes making a few of his hands better than ours- but not many. Either way, things didn't really get much better for us unless he had like A6/AK. Most likely, he won't continue in the situation that he misses, and he will in the situation he's hit.

He continues.

At this point, Sets, two-pairs, and even big combo draws+riverbluffs give us tough situations. We're OOP with a bad hand.

I'd just go ahead and fold this turn... but I would have not played this hand like this at all. If our thought on the flop is to trap a spewy player that bets every street, then we should be calling him all the way and not worry about what comes. Assuming your plan was to just call-down with a big PF hand, I'm fine with calling here.

River comes and makes a straight draw come- but other than that, it's a pretty bricky deuce. Possibly 32s is now bigger than us. At this point, we want to just stick to our plan of check-calling (assuming this is a crazy ass player that just bets the farm every hand).

We check, he bets, and we raise.

This is the action that helped me try understand what you did and why. I think you believed that this player liked to just make big pots- regardless of their holdings.

Either way, our check is fine- our raise is not.

Why is our raise so terrible? There are no hands he has (even as a bluff) that he will jam (due to the flushdraw missing) unless he's beating us. So he's either ahead by a little, ahead by a lot, or we're ahead by a little.

Given his turn bet plus his sizing, I'd almost lean on him being ahead (possibly a set?) but that's a random ass stab in the dark.

Anyways, if he is a spewy player that just bets the farm every hand- this is a snap-call on the river. We missed our call and opened the door for our stack. We get it all in, and get the bad news.

Nice try, study more.
OP don't listen to this, awful advice. As for the hand just 3bet this hand at a 100% freq.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:36 AM   #11
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Originally Posted by Hrmmmm View Post
He doesn't have to 3bet every QQ in BB
It is without a doubt more profitable to 3bet QQ than it is to flat it in the BB vs. a 23/18 raising on the BTN.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:54 AM   #12
Hrmmmm
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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It is without a doubt more profitable to 3bet QQ than it is to flat it in the BB vs. a 23/18 raising on the BTN.
It is also profitable to vary the way you play hands. You guys always make the mistake of saying always do such and such. The idea is that you take minor loss in some areas of your game so you make a larger gain in others.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:58 AM   #13
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Pre is bad... I dont think you should ever trap OOP if you want to trap do it with AA IP QQ get out drawn to often by his open/folding range.
AP-Flop is c/r you get value from 9x TTJJ you fold out a some high equity hands
Turn is close you can raise in this spot too.
River is c/c even if he calls with all AJ (12) he has12 sets and like 10 two pairs and 12 AA KK so it looks like clear - EV play
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:00 AM   #14
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Btw Im pretty sure that QQ are 100%3b even in theory so there is no good argument for call pre
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:02 AM   #15
Hrmmmm
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Pre is bad... I dont think you should ever trap OOP if you want to trap do it with AA IP QQ get out drawn to often by his open/folding range.
AP-Flop is c/r you get value from 9x TTJJ you fold out a some high equity hands
Turn is close you can raise in this spot too.
River is c/c even if he calls with all AJ (12) he has12 sets and like 10 two pairs and 12 AA KK so it looks like clear - EV play
Trapping a LAG like this can be quite profitable especially when he won't call your 3bets. You might have a limited amount of opportunities and have to play QQ OOP.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:04 AM   #16
Hrmmmm
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Btw Im pretty sure that QQ are 100%3b even in theory so there is no good argument for call pre


This is absolutely false on so many levels.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:43 AM   #17
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Originally Posted by Hrmmmm View Post
Trapping a LAG like this can be quite profitable especially when he won't call your 3bets. You might have a limited amount of opportunities and have to play QQ OOP.
This whole thread is one big WTF? If LAG is not calling your 3bets then the absolutely basic logic should tell you to just bluff him more pre instead of flatting such a good hand. Jesus...
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:01 AM   #18
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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This whole thread is one big WTF? If LAG is not calling your 3bets then the absolutely basic logic should tell you to just bluff him more pre instead of flatting such a good hand. Jesus...
You guys always fail to see the other side of the coin. While it is optimal to 3bet QQ here, the OP is most likely to get a fold. It can make sense to keep certain LAGs (but not this player) in the pot by flatting since some of them are likely to hang themselves on your hand.

By thinking so narrowly, many players are highly predictable and exploitable. It is easy to identify your ranges.

I will say one thing, the OP should understand his play is a suboptimal play in the wrong spot against the wrong opponent. I did want to point out however that the advice he is being given isn't exactly accurate. There are a variety of situations in poker that turn a suboptimal play into an optimal play. I was merely pointing one of those out.

3bet bluffing a LAG is fine, but that does not make flatting OOP QQ at a table where your 3bet is likely to be folded to or even playing it passively incorrect in all situations. You guys should understand that. It isn't debatable.

Saying anything like you should always 3bet QQ here is a mistake. Yes, it is a good idea, but telling someone that they must always do it is wrong. You should understand that.

Last edited by Hrmmmm; 05-19-2017 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:07 AM   #19
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Old 05-19-2017, 02:48 PM   #20
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

What is this thread?

3Bet pre. AP XC down. How can we ever XF QQ on 963ssJ after flatting pre BBvsBtN?! Sure, we turn two pair sometimes, and have some flopped sets, but we have so many straight draws, flush draws, 2nd and 3rd pair type hands, that folding literally the top of our range is terrible here.

Combined with the fact that if the BTN is somewhat competent, he can still have a lot of combos worse for value (9x, TT, and Jx).
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:51 PM   #21
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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This is absolutely false on so many levels.
I don't understand your logic, almost every 3Betting strategy for BB vs BTN includes QQ being 3Bet at 100% frequency. Explain?
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:08 PM   #22
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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I don't understand your logic, almost every 3Betting strategy for BB vs BTN includes QQ being 3Bet at 100% frequency. Explain?
It's a pretty thin point but here's what hrmm is saying.
If villain folds all hands to a 3bet but KK/AA, clearly there is more value in just calling QQ preflop as we can get more value postflop. Say a player opens 50% but only calls 3bets with 2%, it may be more profitable to flat QQ vs a wide range than 3bet and only get called vs a tighter range which we're flipping with. Also vs aggressive opponents who are prone to triple barrel bluffing with a wide range, it can also be more profitable.

Obviously going to need quite a bit of history to take it to the extreme of flatting QQ BBvsBTN, but I think people can use this point to exploit villain tendencies in their own game.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:28 AM   #23
cantor1987
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

Just lol at anyone trying to reason flatting QQ here v a button open. If he's folding to too many 3bets in my mind we should be 3bet bluffing more frequently to expoilt not flatting premiums OOP.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:41 AM   #24
ALongmuir
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Just lol at anyone trying to reason flatting QQ here v a button open. If he's folding to too many 3bets in my mind we should be 3bet bluffing more frequently to expoilt not flatting premiums OOP.
Clearly not the point. Yeah we could 3B QQ to win the pot right there, but it may be more EV to flat. Say someone folds 99% to 3Bs, clearly flatting QQ is better as it's more EV. We can 3B ATC sure, but that's completely irrelevant to the point that we are making. It's not that hard to understand.

FWIW its such a pointless argument since it won't ever come up, but we can apply it for other spots.

Last edited by ALongmuir; 05-20-2017 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:59 AM   #25
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Re: 25 NL: Overpair QQ No Good

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Yeah we could 3B QQ to win the pot right there, but it may be more EV to flat.
I think may is the word that should be emphasized.
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