2 hands flatting AA pre - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

Swanndogg · 06-27-2012, 02:48 AM

I am almost always raising AA pre, except in very few situations against very few opponents. Here are two such situations.

First Hand

Villain is 21/17 fold to 3bet 80%. He is raising 23% from CO. 270 hands on him. Post flop he is cbetting 85% flop and 40% turn. His WTSD is 44%.

, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
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BB: $27.89 (278.9 bb)
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $11.10 (111 bb)
Hero (BTN): $11.53 (115.3 bb)
SB: $20.19 (201.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

A

MP folds, CO raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds

Based on his numbers, I decide to flat. I am IP, he will likely fold and both sb and bb have around 10% 3bet stats - maybe they will squeeze.

Flop: ($0.75) 5

9

4

(2 players)
CO bets $0.56, Hero calls $0.56

Good flop for me. Obv I am never folding since he is cbetting his entire range. Such a dry flop, I decide I am not going to raise, and most likely I am calling down at least another street/betting for value on turn.

Turn: ($1.87) K

(2 players)
CO bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

Good card for me. This hits his range squarely. He can now decide to bluff the over or else bet for value. He may also pick up a few draws. I don't think I am getting too much value from raising yet. If river bricks I may shove a bet hoping he has Kx and can't get out of the hand. If river brings a possible draw, I am probably calling off any river bet, therefore I flat the turn.

River: ($4.47) 3

(2 players)
CO bets $3.50, Hero ???

He has tons of Kx here, as well as some flushes, sets and air. Call is okay, but I think I should have shoved river. I look bluffy, and he can call with almost his entire range.

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2nd Hand

Villain is 27/21 and 3bets 9% (14% from sb). He is cbetting 70% on flop and 20% on turn Over 126 hands. He has no fold to 3bet stats.

, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13347352

UTG: $25.15 (251.5 bb)
MP: $14.47 (144.7 bb)
CO: $4.36 (43.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $13.56 (135.6 bb)
SB: $11.62 (116.2 bb)
BB: $10.15 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

A

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB raises to $0.85, BB folds, Hero calls $0.60

-like before, I am IP, villain's range is wide, he cbets a ton, and I don't want to fold him out just yet. He also has high Af (50%), and his 3bet cbet is 100%

Flop: ($1.80) 5

T

(2 players)
SB bets $0.90, Hero calls $0.90

Once again, no way I am folding. Don't want to raise and isolate his 10xs though.

Turn: ($3.60) J

(2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3

Actually a decent card for me. This will encourage him to continue his aggression with his his FD/SDs he picked up, and of course his overpairs and trips. Once again, don't really want to raise and isolate his range too much plus, I will keep in his river bluffs.

River: ($9.60) Q

(2 players)
SB bets $6.87, Hero ???

Don't like this card at all. It gives him the straight, he is still betting his trips, he has a ton of full houses now, and I think he may be c/calling with his Qx, Jx and Kx type hands. I think the only thing I can beat now is a bluff, so this should be a fold

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What does everyone thing about these lines (again, I know not standard, but not really standard rocket situations either)

Gunnerz69 · 06-27-2012, 02:56 AM

hand 1, why didnt you raise on the flop or turn??

The turn card is great. If he has Kx he's probably willing to call a 3x raise.
Now there will be roughly $10 in the pot and you have $5-6 left and it's an easy push.
Most of the time you are doubling up.

I don't like the river raise with AA, he's not going to call on any draws anymore, so you lose all the draws. I would just call that river how you played it.

PlayLikeRussian · 06-27-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnerz69

hand 1, why didnt you raise on the flop or turn??

The turn card is great. If he has Kx he's probably willing to call a 3x raise.
Now there will be roughly $10 in the pot and you have $5-6 left and it's an easy push.
Most of the time you are doubling up.

I don't like the river raise with AA, he's not going to call on any draws anymore, so you lose all the draws. I would just call that river how you played it.

We should never raise turn with any value hand on hand 1 for so many reasons.

I just call river fwiw if we shove we don't look bluffy we look like we've got sets and 67. I would fold all worse and some better hands to a river shove basically.

Hand 2 is pretty gross by the river but its possible we beat some of his valuebets like qj,aq,kk so I wouldn't fold.

I don't love any of your lines pre but whatever.

Swanndogg · 06-27-2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnerz69

hand 1, why didnt you raise on the flop or turn??
The turn card is great. If he has Kx he's probably willing to call a 3x raise.
Now there will be roughly $10 in the pot and you have $5-6 left and it's an easy push.
Most of the time you are doubling up.

I don't like the river raise with AA, he's not going to call on any draws anymore, so you lose all the draws. I would just call that river how you played it.

I think his range is so wide on flop, that I am just folding everything out but sets and overpairs. And board is so dry that I don't mind him catching something if he doesn't have the K. As far as turn, I think I make more money allowing him to bet his Kxs.

Gunnerz69 · 06-27-2012, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayLikeRussian

We should never raise turn with any value hand on hand 1 for so many reasons.

I just call river fwiw if we shove we don't look bluffy we look like we've got sets and 67. I would fold all worse and some better hands to a river shove basically.

Hand 2 is pretty gross by the river but its possible we beat some of his valuebets like qj,aq,kk so I wouldn't fold.

I don't love any of your lines pre but whatever.

Care to elaborate?

We need to be raising at some point with AA. I prefer pre. flop and that turn.
If he has air, then so be it, he folds.
But that K hit him alot of the time, and if he has AK, KQ we're getting alot of money out of him. We need to take advantage of it. And not just trying to induce a bluff on the river. If he's drawing and misses on the river and checks and then we bet and he folds, we've lost money on this hand

Upswing · 06-27-2012, 03:29 AM

1. Im calling the river
2. Im folding the river.

PeoplesElbow · 06-27-2012, 05:16 AM

call in both spots, your hands under-repped, they can value bet wrose.

GOONERCAM · 06-27-2012, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayLikeRussian

We should never raise turn with any value hand on hand 1 for so many reasons

not this. Far too absolute of a statement.
Call river in hand 1, hand 2 is pretty meh. I probably fold

PlayLikeRussian · 06-27-2012, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOONERCAM

not this. Far too absolute of a statement.
Call river in hand 1, hand 2 is pretty meh. I probably fold

Yeah that was a kinda douchey statement from me but against that guy what hands would you raise ott and why?

My reasoning is its a great barrel card for villain and villain will 3 barrel with a resonable frequency with air and would for sure value bet all kx otr assuming hes decent. In villain's shoes I would also snap b/f turn with all my kx.

chiego · 06-27-2012, 07:03 AM

calldown both

GOONERCAM · 06-27-2012, 07:09 AM

Yeah of course your reasoning has a sound basis I'm just trying to make the point that you dont wanna handcuff yourself to absolutes wrt to overall gameplan. I could certainly see good reasons to raise the turn with our hand here if we apply some reasonable assumptions (won't b/f Kx, doesn't double barrel alot, triples even less, will b/c JTdd/QJdd type hands) I agree that I also wouldn't raise the turn in most initial instances but if you consider how were going to approach playing a guy like I mentioned we can go fullpelt exploitative and raise 55/AA there because were folding JJ so we needn't worry about protecting our turn call range ( he exploits himself by not barrelling turn enough) again this is all conjecture im just saying it's dangerous to close your mind to certain strategies.

GOONERCAM · 06-27-2012, 07:10 AM

But yeah I wouldn't raise AA at any point vs this guy, shoving the river is possibly the most absurd thought

Swanndogg · 06-27-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOONERCAM

But yeah I wouldn't raise AA at any point vs this guy, shoving the river is possibly the most absurd thought

Lol. FWIW, I called and he showed a missed SD. The reason I thought shoving river was okay in hindsight is because he he would only have to call approx $4 to see a $16 pot. If he is betting Kx, can anyone fold TP at this point when they only have to be right 1 in 5? Why does it matter that we eliminate his draws? His value hands that we beat account for more than 20% of his total combos, IMO.

Also, Can anyone make a solid argument for raising AA pre in these types of spots, where (especially in hand 1) we have a good idea we are playing against a wide range IP and may end up just follding out our opponent the vast majority of the time, or is my line pre pretty solid?

SCF · 06-27-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swanndogg

Also, Can anyone make a solid argument for raising AA pre in these types of spots, where (especially in hand 1) we have a good idea we are playing against a wide range IP and may end up just follding out our opponent the vast majority of the time, or is my line pre pretty solid?

In Hand 1, the flat pre seems fine. You have a villain who folds a ton to 3bets and active blinds who may squeeze. That seems like the textbook scenario for flatting AA pre.

In Hand 2, I would tend to just 4-bet. With those 3bet stats, I'm guessing he is likely folding or raising from the blinds preflop, so he seems likely to 5bet or fold. Since it is blind vs. button, he may decide you are playing back at him after he 3bet a few times from the blinds. Unlike in Hand 1, you don't have any particular reason to think he is more likely to fold to a 4bet. If he folds, you will also know that you can 4-bet bluff him under the right circumstances.

raikkonen3 · 06-27-2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swanndogg

Lol. FWIW, I called and he showed a missed SD. The reason I thought shoving river was okay in hindsight is because he he would only have to call approx $4 to see a $16 pot. If he is betting Kx, can anyone fold TP at this point when they only have to be right 1 in 5? Why does it matter that we eliminate his draws? His value hands that we beat account for more than 20% of his total combos, IMO.

I'd be folding river 100% of the time if I had a one pair hand on that river and only bad players are going to call. You may get awesome pot odds but you're literally never going to be right on that river with Kx, there's a chance that villain could level himself but he'll show up with a better hand a lot more times than he'll hero call.

I'd probably 3bet hand 1 for balance reasons because I'm obviously going to be 3betting these type of regs a lot from BTN vs CO so I want to balance my range at least a bit.

Hand 2 I can see the merits of both, I'd probably mix in some 4bet bluffs against these type of opponents so if I don't 4bet my value range I'd be very unbalanced.

Then again, regs will probably never pick up on these at NL10 so flatting in both is good.