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Micro Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding micro stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (25c-50c and below)

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Old 05-18-2017, 07:46 AM   #1
kmd12
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16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

I think it looks pretty strong when he is jamming into two players. What's your play here?

PokerStars - $0.16 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 333.38 BB
SB: 100.5 BB
BB: 210.38 BB
UTG: 138.06 BB
Hero (MP): 104 BB
CO: 130.31 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 4 players) T 6 J
BB checks, Hero bets 8 BB, CO calls 8 BB, fold, BB calls 8 BB

Turn: (36.5 BB, 3 players) 8
BB checks, Hero bets 23 BB, CO calls 23 BB, BB raises to 178 BB, Hero?
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:25 AM   #2
Ondrejik
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmd12 View Post
I think it looks pretty strong when he is jamming into two players. What's your play here?

PokerStars - $0.16 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 333.38 BB
SB: 100.5 BB
BB: 210.38 BB
UTG: 138.06 BB
Hero (MP): 104 BB
CO: 130.31 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J A

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 4 players) T 6 J
BB checks, Hero bets 8 BB, CO calls 8 BB, fold, BB calls 8 BB

Turn: (36.5 BB, 3 players) 8
BB checks, Hero bets 23 BB, CO calls 23 BB, BB raises to 178 BB, Hero?

ap fold?
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:36 AM   #3
mchares
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Turn card completes OESD, bet/fold is fine, not sure if x/f OTT is ok as well... but Id bet/fold OTT
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:42 AM   #4
kmd12
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

TY guys.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:09 AM   #5
ALongmuir
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

To that sizing we can fold this comfortably. Not sure exactly what range we should be calling on this board + multiway, but defending with sets, straights, two pair and monster draws should be fine.

I'd think we can overfold since BB is going to have way more straights than us and is likely not bluffing enough with this sizing into two players.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:23 PM   #6
Haizemberg93
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Probably start by checking the flop.You dont need to bet for protection because nobody is folding KQ or flush draw or str8 draw and you are in tough spot if you get raise+ 2 players have position on you.And if it goes something crazy like somebody bets and get raised you have easy fold.
Turn same.AP-Pretty easy fold you have sets two pairs probably all over pairs combo draws so this is pretty low in your range.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:17 PM   #7
Joao.Cardoso
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

As played fold. This is a 4-way pot and people are usually very tight because you are also cbeting tighter (or you should at least).

I think you even overplayed this a bit. After you get called on the flop by two players what do you expect your turn cbet to accomplish?
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:14 AM   #8
ALongmuir
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

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Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 View Post
Probably start by checking the flop.You dont need to bet for protection because nobody is folding KQ or flush draw or str8 draw and you are in tough spot if you get raise+ 2 players have position on you.And if it goes something crazy like somebody bets and get raised you have easy fold.
Turn same.AP-Pretty easy fold you have sets two pairs probably all over pairs combo draws so this is pretty low in your range.
Definitely don't want to be checking the flop. We are betting for value versus draws, not trying to fold them out. We are folding out Kx,Qx + gutshots that still have decent equity versus us and gaining value from Jx and Tx. If we're scared we will get raised we won't bet anything but the nuts, that can't be our mentality.

I'd bet turn for similar reasons.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:44 AM   #9
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Imo AJo cant go bet bet bet and most draws will bet if we check. Betiing is not bad option but maybe c/r with AJ draws and two pair + can be ok as well, by c/r we get more value from KJ and draws and we maybe get fold from weaker flush draws
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:54 AM   #10
ALongmuir
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

I agree AJ would be thin triple barrelling multiway, OOP it's either bet/bet/x, or bet/x/bet obvs depending on runout, since it's multiway + no-one has raised the flop, I prefer betting turn to deny draws realising their equity and gain value.

Are there too many draws betting this flop? Do they expect many folds multiway on such a wet flop? x/r has the issues with it checking through allowing hands to realise equity, facing a 3b and what are we doing turns and rivers? I believe we need to be more polarised going for a x/r on this flop. By x/r AJ here, our betting or x/c range is very weak and can be easily exploited.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:42 AM   #11
StakeNotify
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

This is 1 street value hand vs 3players, I want to throw up for half a deck on the turn, definitely, start by checking the flop, you just make your life hell if you bet here. Little eq what you MAY squeeze out by betting flop is overwritten huge mistakes what you can make turn/river.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:04 PM   #12
kmd12
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

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Originally Posted by Joao.Cardoso View Post
As played fold. This is a 4-way pot and people are usually very tight because you are also cbeting tighter (or you should at least).

I think you even overplayed this a bit. After you get called on the flop by two players what do you expect your turn cbet to accomplish?
My thoughts behind the turn bet was that I was expecting anything better than AJ would raise on the flop so I felt like I had to protect my hand against SD's and FD's.

Interesting to see your different reviews!
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:44 PM   #13
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

I would never check a flop this wet with TPTK vs 3 ranges, I don't think we have 3 streets of value, but should always bet flop here for protection.

Turn bet seems fine IMO to that card, it only helps Q9 and 97 if they have it, and I would expect Qc9c to sometimes raise OTF. You could still get called by FDs and SDs, few worse Jx, and maybe a 98-87 decides to call with draw+crappy SDV.

When BB shoves OTR vs 2 he has all sets and straights, and I think that's as far as our hand can get so I'd fold, plus if BB was ever bluffing here we have CO behind and he might call with some combo draws just because we called and he gets good odds, so there's also that to worry about.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:13 PM   #14
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

I'd bet flop and either xc or xf turn depending on villain and their range they get with ott
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:26 PM   #15
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALongmuir View Post
I agree AJ would be thin triple barrelling multiway, OOP it's either bet/bet/x, or bet/x/bet obvs depending on runout, since it's multiway + no-one has raised the flop, I prefer betting turn to deny draws realising their equity and gain value.

Are there too many draws betting this flop? Do they expect many folds multiway on such a wet flop? x/r has the issues with it checking through allowing hands to realise equity, facing a 3b and what are we doing turns and rivers? I believe we need to be more polarised going for a x/r on this flop. By x/r AJ here, our betting or x/c range is very weak and can be easily exploited.
I agree that if it goes check trough is bad but still we can pretty much c/c or bet most of the turns.Yes draws should bet flop.If we get raised we have pretty easy fold because we have big combo draws and sets to continue.
AJ is not that strong hand so our betting range dont gain much more value form that.We should c/c AcJ a lot.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:43 PM   #16
ALongmuir
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

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Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 View Post
I agree that if it goes check trough is bad but still we can pretty much c/c or bet most of the turns.Yes draws should bet flop.If we get raised we have pretty easy fold because we have big combo draws and sets to continue.
AJ is not that strong hand so our betting range dont gain much more value form that.We should c/c AcJ a lot.
Why should draws bet flop?
We can't bet most turns, there's tons of poor ones which is why we are betting flop.
Similar reasons for raising goes for the flop, our ease of folding to a raise shouldn't factor too much into our bet on the flop.
AJ is a strong hand, and gains tons of value from draws, weaker Jx and Tx, and villains will play their stronger hands fast MW on a wet board so it's far easier to bet. I'd agree with these statements for QJ, but clearly AJ is a far stronger hand.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:07 PM   #17
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Because there are the best bluffs ones can have.
AJ should be worst value hand in our betting range.Just because one line is easier dont mean its better.
If we cbet flop we must have clear plan if we get raised because it will be the case a very large % of the time.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:12 PM   #18
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 View Post
Probably start by checking the flop.You dont need to bet for protection because nobody is folding KQ or flush draw or str8 draw and you are in tough spot if you get raise+ 2 players have position on you.And if it goes something crazy like somebody bets and get raised you have easy fold.
Turn same.AP-Pretty easy fold you have sets two pairs probably all over pairs combo draws so this is pretty low in your range.


+1


apk ~
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:25 AM   #19
ALongmuir
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Re: 16NLz - TP on wet board gets jammed OTT

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Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 View Post
Because there are the best bluffs ones can have.
AJ should be worst value hand in our betting range.Just because one line is easier dont mean its better.
If we cbet flop we must have clear plan if we get raised because it will be the case a very large % of the time.
You are overestimating villains ranges and underestimating the strength of AJ in comparison to these ranges.

In villains ranges, only 66 and JT are ahead and there are far more draws in villains range given pre-flop action, 89, KQ, Q9, clubs, not to mention all the Jx and Tx in this range too. We also deny equity from Kx, Qx and gutshots that would otherwise see turns for free. For me, it's a slam dunk c-bet.

Turn is closer but still think it's a bet considering the amount of pair + OESD/FD that will call, value from Jx and prevent other draws realising their equity.

As for raising, it really depends on the action since its multiway. Either calling and reevaluating turn due to sheer lack of value hands villain has, or overfolding w AJ since villain has shown significant strength.

Last edited by ALongmuir; 05-20-2017 at 04:42 AM.
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