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NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks

08-16-2017 , 10:17 PM
Keep in mind villain is looking fishy from the 53 hands I've played with him so far.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.92, PFR: 17.31, 3Bet Preflop: 2.27, Hands: 108)
SB: 146.84 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
BB: 451.32 BB (VPIP: 42.00, PFR: 24.00, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 53)
UTG: 129.56 BB (VPIP: 16.91, PFR: 8.70, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 214)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.07, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 17.65, Hands: 57)
Hero (CO): 447.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A A

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, BB raises to 13.4 BB, fold, Hero raises to 49 BB, BB calls 35.6 BB

Flop: (99.4 BB, 2 players) J 6 T
BB checks, Hero bets 68.2 BB, BB raises to 402.32 BB and is all-in

Hero????
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-16-2017 , 10:54 PM
Also villain snap shoved which is scary and skews his range in my eyes to sets and two pairs. Can we find an easy fold here?
Furthermore is it ever reasonable to assume our opponent would act this way WITHOUT a hand we beat? Like does he ever shove this many blinds with a flush draw or openender (or KK he flatted weirdly)?

Id love to hear thoughts in general on playing deep stacks vs fish
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-16-2017 , 11:15 PM
You don't have As so he can have AsKs and AsQs for a strong combo draw.
KsQs is another good combo draw.
If we discount 66 from his preflop 4bet calling range (which I think he will flat it this deep) he still has JJ,TT for 6 combos and JTs for 2 combos.
I don't see him doing this with a naked OESD that often.
So put it in an equity calculator and see what is your equity agaisnt his range.
Imo, an exploitative fold here is better. He is a fish and will spew later in.. So you can get better spots to get it in with better shape than this...

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NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-16-2017 , 11:39 PM
Check flop.

Ap folding is fine, will be better spots vs fish. Also doubt your equity vs his overall range is good
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohsen
You don't have As so he can have AsKs and AsQs for a strong combo draw.
KsQs is another good combo draw.
If we discount 66 from his preflop 4bet calling range (which I think he will flat it this deep) he still has JJ,TT for 6 combos and JTs for 2 combos.
I don't see him doing this with a naked OESD that often.
So put it in an equity calculator and see what is your equity agaisnt his range.
Imo, an exploitative fold here is better. He is a fish and will spew later in.. So you can get better spots to get it in with better shape than this...

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So I threw it into the stove and in order to have the odds to call, villain needs to be shoving JJ-TT, 66, AsKs, AsQs, KsQs, JsTs, and any KQ with a spade.
Since he's definitely not snap shoving this many blinds with all the above
hands 100% of the time, i can see how this is a pretty easy fold...

Thanks for the thoughts
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Check flop.

Ap folding is fine, will be better spots vs fish. Also doubt your equity vs his overall range is good
I see people saying AP a lot, what does that stand for?

Also what benefits do you see to checking back the flop? I can see merit in keeping the pot from bloating when we only have an overpair, but surely there's enough value to be made from a fish who has his AJ, flush draws, openenders, and QQ KK in his range.
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Check flop.

Ap folding is fine, will be better spots vs fish. Also doubt your equity vs his overall range is good
what if villain triple barrels on a blankish run out? are we calling down
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russkiwi
I see people saying AP a lot, what does that stand for?

Also what benefits do you see to checking back the flop? I can see merit in keeping the pot from bloating when we only have an overpair, but surely there's enough value to be made from a fish who has his AJ, flush draws, openenders, and QQ KK in his range.
AP: as played
Checking back the flop could be good because:
You 4bet. So the best hand you could have on this board is JJ. It's about ranges and range advantage.
As the hand played out and based on pre-flop action , Villain has range advantage which means he has more nutted combos than you.
He can have all setts and 2 pairs and you only can have JJ( I don't see you 4 bet TT this deep)
So by checking, you control the size of the pot, avoid getting check-raised off of your equity AND you protect your check-back range (it doesn't matter that much against a fish but against a regular, you want to have check backs with some good show down value hands for the times you have AK and elect to xheck back your gotshots..)
You also are in position and can get betts in on later streets...

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NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 03:10 AM
Check flop for sure this deep. U hate ur life if u get raised this deep on this kinda board texture.

AP, I have no idea.. flip a coin?
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 03:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohsen
AP: as played
Checking back the flop could be good because:
You 4bet. So the best hand you could have on this board is JJ. It's about ranges and range advantage.
As the hand played out and based on pre-flop action , Villain has range advantage which means he has more nutted combos than you.
He can have all setts and 2 pairs and you only can have JJ( I don't see you 4 bet TT this deep)
So by checking, you control the size of the pot, avoid getting check-raised off of your equity AND you protect your check-back range (it doesn't matter that much against a fish but against a regular, you want to have check backs with some good show down value hands for the times you have AK and elect to xheck back your gotshots..)
You also are in position and can get betts in on later streets...

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Wow, when you put it simply like that it makes a tonne of sense. Thanks for the insight
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 01:18 PM
Checking flop's good when villain has range advantage (basically, we're much less likely to have TT-JJ compared to villain).

Kinda surprised no one's mentioned the huge 4-bet PF.
NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote
08-17-2017 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBJames
Checking flop's good when villain has range advantage (basically, we're much less likely to have TT-JJ compared to villain).

Kinda surprised no one's mentioned the huge 4-bet PF.
It's actually a good think.
1- we are agaisnt a fish. So we play based on vacume EV. So balancing is not a concern here..
2- We are in position
3- We are very deep
4- We can get action from all kind of crap that fish can't fold pre flop and might even jam some of them (like AK and AQ! Yes I've seen fish jam 300bb with AQo pre!!!)

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NL25: AA facing flop shove - very deep stacks Quote

      
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