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Old 08-12-2017, 05:10 PM   #1
Strappz
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50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

$50nl Zone Poker on Ignition - No Reads

Effective stacks $48.50

4 folds, SB[me] raises to $1.25 with QJ, BB calls $0.75

FLOP: 849 pot $2.50

SB[me] checks, BB bets $2.00, SB[me] calls $2.00

TURN: 849Q pot $6.50

SB[me] checks, BB bets $4.00, SB[me] calls $4.00

RIVER: 849QT pot $14.50

SB[me] ???

Pre seems standard blind vs blind.

With this flop texture I expect to get raised a frequent portion of the time blind vs blind based on player pool tendencies. I decide to check my two overs and gutshot with intentions of calling a bet.

Turn I pick up top pair still having the gutter with intentions of calling another bet, which I do with another check call. Didn't really consider check-raising here but am open to thoughts on that line. I don't think my hand is strong enough to play a big pot just yet which is why I opted for the check/call.

The river gives me the straight and the backdoor flush comes in. I have little concern over him backing into a diamond flush so I expect to have the best hand unless he has something like KJ. We're not sweating one combo though.

Thoughts on what to do on the river?
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:22 PM   #2
datacedoe
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

would prefer to just bet flop to get immediate folds from Kx+, low pairs but don't mind xc either. would barrel off of most turns and rivers besides hearts and maybe Jx, expecting villain to raise most of his strong holdings on the flop. river is just an xc as played. you're rarely getting calls from worse and villain can still have diamonds and the occasional KJ. your line doesn't make sense as a bluff and it's good to have some strong hands in your xc range.
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Old 08-12-2017, 05:59 PM   #3
Haizemberg93
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

C/c big bet OOP with no SDV not sure how good that is
Probably check river you dont have many diamonds and Jx
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:28 PM   #4
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

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Originally Posted by datacedoe View Post
would prefer to just bet flop to get immediate folds from Kx+, low pairs but don't mind xc either. would barrel off of most turns and rivers besides hearts and maybe Jx, expecting villain to raise most of his strong holdings on the flop. river is just an xc as played. you're rarely getting calls from worse and villain can still have diamonds and the occasional KJ. your line doesn't make sense as a bluff and it's good to have some strong hands in your xc range.
I think check call is better than check raise as well. I didn't cbet because I expect to get raised by any pair or draw blind vs blind. Can't really continue in that scenario which is somewhat frequent vs the player pool. If the flop weren't two tone I would have favored a cbet instead for reasons you stated.


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Originally Posted by Haizemberg93 View Post
C/c big bet OOP with no SDV not sure how good that is
Probably check river you dont have many diamonds and Jx
Flop call is thin, I'll give you that. With a gutshot to the nuts we can get into spots where the BB picks up equity when we improve our hand. Essentially I'm trading a small mistake early for implied odds on later streets. I also expect overs to be good a decent amount of the time. That's not to ignore the reverse implied odds which are certainly present on a T.

You'll have to elaborate on factoring SDV on the flop two streets away.

Last edited by Strappz; 08-12-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:48 PM   #5
Oregon Rick
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

With 2 overs and a gutshot, I would be cbetting this flop. By cbetting this flop, we could be getting some Ace and King high hands to fold. I would continue cbetting the turn after hitting the Queen, and check the river if called up to that point.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:16 PM   #6
Strappz
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

Yeah maybe betting flop is better. Probably gives us more options to barrel because if I don't improve on the turn I'm likely stuck check/folding after check calling the flop.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:01 PM   #7
Maverick93
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

Check river
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:13 AM   #8
pokerforumposter
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

don't c/c flop, thats just so bad since you don't have the required equity, basically you are hoping to hit a pair for showdown or your tainted gutshot with some implied odds. Unless they are extemely unbalanced you will generate plenty of folds from betting, and if they are truly that unbalanced you will print money from them by 3betting flop light (this would be a decent spot). c/c river AP because you have much weaker range than your opponent
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:57 AM   #9
Jebyrek
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

check and reraise if villian do bet. if you bet 1st, he ll call only if he have a set
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:16 AM   #10
Strappz
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

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Originally Posted by pokerforumposter View Post
don't c/c flop, thats just so bad since you don't have the required equity, basically you are hoping to hit a pair for showdown or your tainted gutshot with some implied odds. Unless they are extemely unbalanced you will generate plenty of folds from betting, and if they are truly that unbalanced you will print money from them by 3betting flop light (this would be a decent spot). c/c river AP because you have much weaker range than your opponent
This is Zone poker on Ignition. Players are anonymous and it's their fast fold format so there are zero reads. As I mentioned in my OP my decision to check call on this two tone flop is a decision based on the player pool's tendencies to raise flops of this texture. I'm check calling because I can't call a raised cbet OOP which I expect a reasonable portion of the time. I have an unknown % of equity with two overs and a gutshot to the nuts. I realize there are reverse odds at play some percent especially if the T shows up. I can see there's a reasonable argument for a cbet versus the line I chose. There's not a ton of difference if I check call $2 versus betting $2 and getting called. However we eliminate the times we lead and are forced to fold when raised and never get the chance to realize our equity/improve our hand.
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Old 08-13-2017, 02:02 AM   #11
Minatorr
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

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Originally Posted by Strappz View Post
This is Zone poker on Ignition. Players are anonymous and it's their fast fold format so there are zero reads. As I mentioned in my OP my decision to check call on this two tone flop is a decision based on the player pool's tendencies to raise flops of this texture. I'm check calling because I can't call a raised cbet OOP which I expect a reasonable portion of the time. I have an unknown % of equity with two overs and a gutshot to the nuts. I realize there are reverse odds at play some percent especially if the T shows up. I can see there's a reasonable argument for a cbet versus the line I chose. There's not a ton of difference if I check call $2 versus betting $2 and getting called. However we eliminate the times we lead and are forced to fold when raised and never get the chance to realize our equity/improve our hand.
People don't raise as bluffs anywhere near as you think they are. When they are, it's usually a huge draw, not something like NFD here. Take this from someone who played Ignition from 5NL-200NL Zone & regular cash games for about two years.

You need to bet flop. You have Q high and can fold out a ton of better hands. If you get raised, oh well because it means you were drawing super thin anyway against his range.
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Old 08-13-2017, 03:06 AM   #12
Strappz
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
People don't raise as bluffs anywhere near as you think they are. When they are, it's usually a huge draw, not something like NFD here. Take this from someone who played Ignition from 5NL-200NL Zone & regular cash games for about two years.

You need to bet flop. You have Q high and can fold out a ton of better hands. If you get raised, oh well because it means you were drawing super thin anyway against his range.
I've experienced a mixture of raises for value and as semi bluffs. I will agree they are weighed more towards the value end of that spectrum.

Really though my question is regarding the river not the flop.
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Old 08-13-2017, 05:06 AM   #13
Mohsen
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

River is an obvious X/C
I guess you need to have some bluffs as well. Right?
What kind of a bluff do you get to the river with? Maybe miss FD's (that you decided to play passively and doesn't contain a jack)
You X/Called 2 streets OOP, leading here is just going to fold worst and get a call from better or chopps...

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Old 08-13-2017, 08:32 AM   #14
Strappz
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Re: 50nl - Blind vs Blind River Decision OOP

Seems like everyone favors a check/call on the river, which seems to be the best line. Thanks.
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